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possible causes guardian mode

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My 2004 6.2 MPI fresh water cooled Mercruiser runs just fine up to 4200rpm (which it struggles to get to), at which point it shuts down to idle speed with a constant warning buzzer. Once the throttle is returned to neutral all is well again, until 4200rpm.

Im thinking there can only be a few causes of these particular symptoms, or alternately the more common causes, and if so some specific test or new sensors I could try for a quick fix.

Can the raw water pressure sensor cause this? Im not sure why it wouldnt warn at lower rpm, unless it only fails at higher pressures. I do know they commonly fail or get clogged up, so Im thinking it may be worth investigating if it can cause these symptoms.

I should also note the sterndrive oil was at (but not below) the "ADD" mark, but I dont see this as a potential cause (but mention it because if I knew what was I wouldnt be posting!).

thanks for any help/advice

(PSI know the real answer is to get a scan tool or pay for diagnostics. Ill do that if I cant take an educated guess here).

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drive oil beeps but does not go into guardian mode. is the engine temp overheating on the gauge? and that motor should hit around 4900 rpms easily, could have risers going bad but should be overheating, hate to say it but I would scan it, other wise you just guess and throw parts at it, scan tools run around 5 large deer.

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Good possibility the problem is your engine block water psi sensor. The older ones had a white body, and were a problem as the white body design could allow water to get into the sensor, thus creating a short. The symptoms you are showing are classic water pressure sensor shorted out with water IMO. In short, your engine's ECM is currently seeing 0.0 psi on the engine block, and it knows it should see 2.0 psi or better at idle.

The water pressure sensor is either mounted on your power steering cooler behind the distributor, or else on the seawater pressure pump itself. Either way, you'll want the new style black bodied MerCruiser part # 8M6000623

Simple plug and play, no need to have the codes cleared. The ECM would suddenly see proper seawater pressure numbers again, and no longer put the engine in Guardian mode.

NOTE: if you don't easily make 4400 RPM after the water pressure sensor has been changed out, that means you have a 2nd problem, or else my gut is totally wrong on the 1st problem, but I don't think I am.

Good luck. Depending on the access, I have found using a 3/8 long socket to fit the psi sensor to be the easiest way to re&re the part.

If the engine runs so that the codes and audio alarm no longer come back, buy you're still down on power, I would install new spark plugs and a distributor cap.

8 of NGK Laser Iridium ITR4A15 and a distributor cap from a mid '90's GM V8 engined truck, like seen below. Will need a Torx T20 for the distributor cap, and a Torx T15 for the rotor.

18-5244.jpg

Chris

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The dealership I worked for sold out to a condo developer, so I'm now working as a service writer for a large local Cobalt and Boston Whaler dealer. Would prefer to work for a large local Chaparral and Robalo dealer, (which are a superior product IMO) but one doesn't exist close enough to home. At any rate, I needed to change my email information, and the system went wonky on me.

Was easier to just start over...

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Good possibility the problem is your engine block water psi sensor. The older ones had a white body, and were a problem as the white body design could allow water to get into the sensor, thus creating a short. The symptoms you are showing are classic water pressure sensor shorted out with water IMO. In short, your engine's ECM is currently seeing 0.0 psi on the engine block, and it knows it should see 2.0 psi or better at idle.

Thanks for that info. Can I ask a couple more questions, and you not take them as me questioning you at all !! Im the one asking, therefore it's me who doesnt know...

When you say these are classic symptoms (which is just the experience/confirmation I was looking for), you're saying there would be typically no apparent problem (aside from a reduction in power to "protect" the engine I presume) from a shorted sensor, no intermittent warning beeper - until in excess of 4000rpm? I was a bit baffled by the lack of other warnings before the engine shuts itself down, but maybe the ECU senses it isnt overheating (it sits on 175 on the gauge) even though it apparently has no water pressure, but at 4200 decides enough is enough. Is that how it works and why it matches my symptoms - well single symptom?

My curiosity aside, and doing something about your advice, taking a look yes the sensor is white as you predicted - mounted at the rear starboard side of the engine. I can surely pull it and test for a short though, or perhaps they dont fail that cleanly? Are there test paramaters if it isnt simply shorted? This is more a curiosity I might add, the white sensor will obviously need to be replaced at some stage if it has been superceeded.

Its looking like I should take the punt on the sensor instead of buying the scan tool right now, although of course it'd also be useful in future.

Thanks again for your reply, it was just what I was looking for instead of randomly throwing cash at the problem!

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The plan of action regaring Guardian Mode is that it shouldn't allow the engine to shut off. The system essentially was designed with the thought that the owner/operator needs to get back to shore, even with a serious problem, and thus does double duty to allow the engine to keep running while trying to prevent as much damage as possible to the engine itself.

To be fair, I have never tested for an internal short inside a water pressure sensor. I'm sure the diagnostics manual states how and what reading should be there, but I've always used the laptop to check actual water pressure psi numbers along with the fault codes. The white bodied versions were a known problem, and I don't think I've ever replaced a black bodied version.

At any rate, your temp gauge appears to be reading correctly, and your description of the problem and symptoms tells me the water pressure sensor is NFG. That, and the engine may need a tune-up.

To answer your question about loss of power and the audio alarm, Guardian has varying degrees to which it reacts to a suspect water pressure sensor. Firstly, when it starts to see values outside it normal parameters, Guardian starts to take away power, and sounds a 'soft' alarm. In this case, lets say below 3500 RPM, it limits power to 90%, and gives 2 beeps every 45 seconds. As soon as you go over a certain threshold, Guardian takes away more power, and sets a 'hard' constant alarm. The actual threshold (load/RPM, etc.) and amount of reduced power varies depending on how critical a sensor or condition is to the overall operation of the engine.

In my experience, an engine with such a problem can be hard to plane out, and the owner/operator often has to bring the shifter back to the neutral position to shut the hard alarm up. Going thru a no wake zone also proves to be frustrating - almost as if the engine prefers to be at a conservative cruise speed. Almost like Guardian does not like going at a no wake speed with a faulty water pressure sensor.

A good seawater pump/impeller on a 2002 or newer Bravo or inboard MerCruiser should show roughly 1.7 psi to 20 psi throughout the RPM range. BTW, what boat model do you have?

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I miss the Chaps, thats all I really want to say on the record...almost everything at the new place is Cobalt, Boston Whaler, or Sea Ray.

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The dealership I worked for sold out to a condo developer, so I'm now working as a service writer for a large local Cobalt and Boston Whaler dealer. Would prefer to work for a large local Chaparral and Robalo dealer, (which are a superior product IMO) but one doesn't exist close enough to home. At any rate, I needed to change my email information, and the system went wonky on me.

Was easier to just start over...

All the best to you on your new career.

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The plan of action regaring Guardian Mode is that it shouldn't allow the engine to shut off. The system essentially was designed with the thought that the owner/operator needs to get back to shore, even with a serious problem, and thus does double duty to allow the engine to keep running while trying to prevent as much damage as possible to the engine itself.

To be fair, I have never tested for an internal short inside a water pressure sensor. I'm sure the diagnostics manual states how and what reading should be there, but I've always used the laptop to check actual water pressure psi numbers along with the fault codes. The white bodied versions were a known problem, and I don't think I've ever replaced a black bodied version.

At any rate, your temp gauge appears to be reading correctly, and your description of the problem and symptoms tells me the water pressure sensor is NFG. That, and the engine may need a tune-up.

To answer your question about loss of power and the audio alarm, Guardian has varying degrees to which it reacts to a suspect water pressure sensor. Firstly, when it starts to see values outside it normal parameters, Guardian starts to take away power, and sounds a 'soft' alarm. In this case, lets say below 3500 RPM, it limits power to 90%, and gives 2 beeps every 45 seconds. As soon as you go over a certain threshold, Guardian takes away more power, and sets a 'hard' constant alarm. The actual threshold (load/RPM, etc.) and amount of reduced power varies depending on how critical a sensor or condition is to the overall operation of the engine.

In my experience, an engine with such a problem can be hard to plane out, and the owner/operator often has to bring the shifter back to the neutral position to shut the hard alarm up. Going thru a no wake zone also proves to be frustrating - almost as if the engine prefers to be at a conservative cruise speed. Almost like Guardian does not like going at a no wake speed with a faulty water pressure sensor.

A good seawater pump/impeller on a 2002 or newer Bravo or inboard MerCruiser should show roughly 1.7 psi to 20 psi throughout the RPM range. BTW, what boat model do you have?

Thankyou again for all that info. Im certainly learning fast with your help!

The diagnostic manual (service manual #36 I assume) has the wiring but doesnt seem to show any measurements. But I guess techs usually just swap out the sensor or use the PC to read the values. I wonder if the Rinda scan tool would do that, or just the PC software?

The only odd thing with my symptoms is I dont hear any warning buzzer at all, intermittent, every 45 seconds or whatsoever and the boat will idle, plane, no wake, whatever without issue for as long as I like - all appears just fine until the continuous buzzer at 4200 rpm and the forced throttle down to idle. And I assume my buzzer is working based on the latter fact. I could possibly conclude the sensor is partially working I suppose, OK for low rpm but not enough for high rpm.

Anyway, enough theory, Ill swap it out and let you know !

To answer your question. the boat is an Australian made Whittley Cruismaster, I doubt you see those over there, but it's 7 metres long and weighs around 2.6 metric tonnes.

As another point of interest, more for amusement than anything, when I tested the boat on the water the owner insisted it should be used only with the sterndrive in the full down position. I never run my boat like this, but she was so insistent I just let it go as it wasnt important to me at the time. Thinking about it now, Ive never tried having incorrect trim (and the trim tabs may have been in a "less than optimal position"), that would possibly account for some of the reluctance to rev up past 4000 I guess, I hadnt really thoiught about it until this conversation - I must try it one day to see how much of a negative influence it has! The owner said they never reved the boat to 4000, which with hindsight I maybe can start to believe!

Off to place my order :-)

thanks again ....

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When you turn the key to the 'on' position from 'off', do you get a short beep? If you do, all this tells you is the EFI system has done a self-check, and found everything to okay.

Sounds to me that your audio alarm is indeed working correctly. As you say, a Rinda scan tool will tell you all you need, or the laptop program too. For codes and expected sensor values, I always use the Diagnostics manual # 36 for the ECM 555 which you have, and # 33 for the PCM 555 (more advanced ECM) that is used on the 496 Mag, etc.

NOTE: carefully check the battery cables going to your starter motor. Are the large red cables loose at all? Had a similar condition once where I would get zero codes until 4000+ RPM, and then the alarm would sound, along with the engine konking out. Loose main battery cables were giving voltage spikes, affecting the ability of the ECM to properly communicate with the sensors.

NOTE 2: What does the oil pressure gauge read when the audio alarm comes on? Have seen where a person running conventional 10w30 engine oil will give a similar condition. That oil grade is too light, and the oil essentially foams up under heavier engine loads around that RPM. In such a case, the oil gauge fluctuates madly when the alarm sounds.

The oil pressure sender for your gauge, and the oil pressure sensor for the ECM are on seperate circuits. What this means is if your audio alarm sounds, and your oil pressure gauge fluctuates madly when the audio alarm sounds, you need to change your oil to a quality marine 25w40 etc.to fix the problem. In such a case, the oil pressure readings are fine until the engine is pushed harder and warmed up properly. Say a 10 minute plus ride.

With your Bravo drive (most likely a Bravo 3 version) some boats don't respond well to stern lift, such as is provided with twin prop drives. In such a case, a person would barely trim their drive(s). Lots of times even on a well behaved hull such as a Chaparral with a twin prop drive, the owner/operator might only trim the drive to 1/8 up at cruise. Single prop drives on the other hand typically need lots of trim to get the optimum efficiency and speed out of their boat.

Lastly, some owners never wish to stress their engines, so they always drive below Wide Open Throttle. Not a good idea in my view. One should see if their engine does indeed make proper power every once in a while, and this test requires the throttle to be advanced as far as it will go, even if for only 20 seconds. If you can't reach 4400-4800 RPM with your engine at WOT, there's a problem that needs to be rectified for the well being of the engine.

I should have asked earlier, but which exact engine do you have?

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Well, that didnt work too well!

Got the updated black raw water pressure sensor. No difference. So I thought Id stop running blind and buy the Rinda scan tool. But so far, it hasnt been as effective as even my reading glasses!

Scanning and fault history give me 94 (pitot), 75 (fuel), 119 (steering), 104 (sea temp), 130 (trim) - none of which I think I have or care about. Fault history gives me 9 - guardian mode (which of course I knew anyway) and 19 overspeed, which I am assuming is exceeding a limit imposed by Guardian mode (around 4000 rpm). Guardian mode indicates 7 seconds and available power of 75%.

Of course this could be a genuine overspeed. However the rpm gauge concurs with the scan tool at 1000 and 2000 rpm, so the rev counter would have to be very badly out or stuck but only at higher rpms (indicated 4000+ rpm at around 25 knots - expected top speed more like 35knots on a 7 metre fibreglass with 6.2 MPI in it). And at the same time the boat would also have to be well overpropped since the WOT should be 4800-5200. So Ive discounted this.

So all this doesnt tell me much at all really.

But if I run the motor (again on the trailer) and gently set rpm around 1000, I suddenly see the available power fluctuating madly between 4% and around 70% (sometimes staying on 4%). In this state, I do not see any of the data stream values fluctuating abnormally. But to my thinking, this fluctuating available power reading isnt normal. However, I dont see any guardian mode associated with it, which I would expect to if the available power really was fluctuating like that. So maybe its a bad reading, a red herring?

And then I thought Id found it. I went looking for loose wires and found either a loose or disconnected stern oil wire (cant tell which, it "came apart in my hand!"). But reconnecting it, the same power fluctuations can be made to appear. So I disconnected the earth wire completely, expecting to see 153 low drive lube, or similar. But no, just the same codes as above (in both sticky and non-sticky). Nothing extra. No alarm, no Guardian, no fault codes.

Now I am really baffled.

The data readings are attached anyway, in case anyone is good at solving puzzles :-)

=========================================================================================================================================

Just to answer some previous posts - Battery connections look good - scan tool confirms good voltage. Oil pressure is around 40 and temperature 175 when the alarm comes on. No fluctuations at all even after a long ride. The oil is Mercruiser 25w40 unless the previous owner put half a bottle in there to look good (which I seriusly doubt).

Engine is a 2003 Mercruiser 6.2 MPI Horizon ECM555.

The boat planes easily (easier than my older but similar boat with a 5.7 Thunderbold carby motor in it).

post-35121-0-01222700-1384151753_thumb.p

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On the Rinda tool, what is the block PSI (seawater pump pressure?) when the engine is idling on the hose?

94 (pitot), 75 (fuel), 119 (steering), 104 (sea temp), 130 (trim)

All SmartCraft features that are simply not hooked up to your Bravo engine; as you say, ignore.

I feel you may need to take the boat out on the water, and then see if you can get a code, or some weird sensor reading to show up (non-sticky) under load.

The temperature of 175, is that on the Rinda, or on the mechanical gauge on the dash? You should have a 162 degree thermostat in the engine.

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On the Rinda tool, what is the block PSI (seawater pump pressure?) when the engine is idling on the hose?

It's hovering around 4-5 psi. At 1100 rpm it's 7 (using the new sensor), and continues to increase with rpm - I didnt go beyond 2000 on the ears.

I feel you may need to take the boat out on the water

Yes I agree re the water, although I confess to being a little confused with the non-sticky faults. I get that non-sticky faults are active when the fault is there and disappear when the fault goes away or when the ignition is cycled. But I cant for the life of me fathom why they wouldn't appear in the fault history, especially if they are causing Guardian mode. Why do Mercruiser code the ECM like that, I mean are there any circumstances when you wouldnt want to see a non-sticky fault that has caused Guardian? Or have I got it wrong?

The temperature of 175, is that on the Rinda, or on the mechanical gauge on the dash?

The previously attached spreadsheet has my readings, but once the engine is warm and the dash gauge reads 175, the scan tool gives me 70c (and recorded 70c for Guardian overspeed 7 seconds) or 159F like you say. The history data records available power 75% and overspeed for 7 seconds, coolant 70c, block pressure 4.5. I am assuming the ECM records this data once and at the end of Guardian mode, hence the block pressure of 4.5, as the remaining data shows load 22% and manifold pressure 10.4 - none of that consistent with Guardian mode start at 4083rpm. So it would have taken me around 7 seconds to throttle right back enough for the alarm to stop, at which point these readings would have been about right.

Anecdotally I did notice the dash gauge crept up to a needle's width above 175 (so it might be indicating 180 perhaps) only after guardian mode for overspeed had kicked in and I had throttled back and everything had returned to apparent normal. But I didnt think anything of this as there was no recorded warning, no double beeps, 180 ish is not overheating as far as I know, and the dash gauge is obviously not that accurate - of course a water test will confirm this but I mention it as the only thing I can see that isnt 100% as expected because the gauge doesnt normally move at all, although Ive only had the boat for a short while.

=========

As an aside, in case you need some amusement, I got the Rinda tool two days ago. First day I recorded al the PCM readings and put them in the attached spreadsheet and had a good play around with it. Second day it intermittently said "error no comms". On reconnecting it twice mis-identifed the ECM as MEFI1 and MEF3. I also noticed an erratic available power and later a steady one of 4%, which clearly isnt right because that was at 1100 rpm - far more than 4%. Of course Rinda said the tool just displays what it is sent, and naturally Mercruiser said their ECM either works or it dies (so likely wouldnt run the engine, and certainly not well) and would not send bad or partial data. I became the man in the middle.

The only bit I can check, the wires from the ECM to the scan tool socket, consist of 4 wires probably a foot long, two for power two for data and so are easy to confirm continuity - and overall battery - engine earth and power appear to be connected reliably, certainly the engine works without hesitation or any other strange symptoms, until Guardian mode overspeed (which I actually consider "normal" - the ECM is working as designed). Strange hey!

On the third day, with key on engine off to eliminate interference as a cause, the tool failed to recognise the ECM at all, and couldnt choose between MEFI1 MEFI2 CEF3 (I think), all of which are wrong, and even told me the motor had 670 hours on it (I know it has 150 from earlier successful readings and the concurring dash). Telling me they have never before seen this fault and that the tool "shouldnt misread the ECM type" they got me to post the tool back (living in Australia Ive now spent an extra 25% of the tool cost on postage). And so now I wait again! So, Im having a hard time here, and if anyone wants to send me a nice cold beer to cheer me up it'd be welcome!

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Hmmm. What does the main engine harness to the instrument harness look like on your engine? If it is the older style cannon plug, remove the gear clamp, and gently remove the harnesses from each other. Look at the male pins; they may need to be seperated with a small flat screwdriver, and then the 2 ends reinstalled. Don't tighten the gear clamp too much - just snug it up.

post-33528-0-55314100-1384735931_thumb.j

Also, for your engine, you'll want Service Manual # 36, which is the ECM 555 Diagnostics section.

One other thing you can try is to remove the gray wire from the back of the tachometer. Depending on the year of your Chaparral, this gray wire may have a ring terminal on the wire, held in place on the tachometer by a nut and washer, or an water proof connector. If you have the water proof style, disconnect and remove the plug-in from the back of the tachometer.

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OK, Im getting somewhere at last. Returned the scan tool to Rhinda, who agreed it was very faulty and sent me a new one.

On the water the new one shows the block pressure does not exceed 4 to 5 psi max, even at 4000rpm. That's too low isnt it? The coolant temperature (closed cooling) sits at 159/160F except for when I do around 3000rpm or more for a sustained period, when it gradually creeps up to 163 to 165max but no more. At this time the riser tops are at around 140-150F (IR thermomoter), just too hot to be comfortable to the touch so a little too hot I think. And, now somewhat unsurprisingly, at between 3800-4200 (it varies) guardian cuts in, and cuts the motor back to idle - although leaves no reason code and somewhat bafflingly says overrev has been reached 48 times which corresponds to one 15second guardian event!. Anyway, at least I know why now.

What is interesting is the old (faulty) Rhinda tool saw block pressures of 7psi at 1100rpm on the ear muffs. Maybe more pressure can be generated, despite whatever the cause, is while on the ear muffs than in the water? Although I would have thought the opposite to be true. Odd indeed.

So with a working Rhinda tool, this narrows it down - 5psi isnt right I dont think? But, aside from trying everything, Im not quite sure where to take my first fix attempt:

The guardian symptoms are unchanged even with a change of pressure sensor to the updated version. This fact, combined with the rising coolant temperature (although Im not actually sure if a mere 5 degrees is indicative of a problem), would suggest that while possible, the sensor is probably now one of the less likely causes. It could also be the sensor wiring, however a short or open I can understand, but a simply inaccurate reading off two different sensors has got to be highly improbable. I could buy a pressure gauge and plumb it in, but Im thinking this is not the top of the list for likely causes so Im inclined to leave that step for now and save my cash. I think the pump pressure really is around 4-5psi.

So then, it could be the pump. Only thing with this is I know for a fact the impellor was replaced by a competent marina 10 months ago. Still, a possible cause but Im not too hopeful that in 10 months the pump could degrade to that extent even taking into account the annual replacement recommendation. I also believe a fried impellor typically causes overheats at low and high rpm. But maybe Im wrong - the pump isnt hard to pull apart and replace the impellor I assume, so I will do that anyway since technically it's due. But Im not really expecting the answer to be there unless my reasoning is flawed.

The only other potential cause I can think of is a restricted intake path. Isn't it just a simple pipe to the sterndrive? How do I test for that? Although I have read posts about an o-ring restricting input flow - which brings me back to how do I test for flow - or is it a pull everything apart and inspect? Is that just the leg removed to inspect, or harder than that?

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5psi is too low sounds like the impeller is worn. When they replaced your impeller, did they replace the impeller housing also? They can wear out too & hurt flow rates.

In regards to exh manifold & riser temps, I know after a fast high RPM run mine are not too hot to touch. So I think you have an issue there.

The Rinda scan tool was $$ well spent IMHO. I have one and it's paid for itself. Once in finding a dead fuel injector and another time the knock sensor wire had come loose and set a code.

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The impellor was done about 8 months before I bought the boat, just the impellor apparently.

But my understanding was that a worm impellor, in addition to being unlikely in that time as I mentioned, would cause overheating at low and high revs. I can idle / use the boat up to 3000 rpm all day long without the temperature budging (verified by the scan tool).

That's why Im thinking pickup restrictions/corrosions - although the boat is trailered, no anti-foul so Im not sure how that can be either.

Hmmm.

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Mercury had some incorrectly sized impellers a while back for your style of seawater pump.

What I'm really thinking though is the brass body is grooved, thereby not allowing the water pressure to go as high as it should at RPM. You want to see roughly double digits regarding water pump pressure at higher RPM levels.

If you have the standard pump (no air drain fittings like the 496 Mag engines use) you should be able to install the updated rear plastic rear style with the ss wear plate.*

*NOTE: I'm referring to newer style brass bodied seawater pump, not the older style plastic bodied seawater pump design.

The link below shows the new style rear composite and the older brass body.

http://www.marineengine.com/boat-forum/showthread.php?401083-New-Sea-Water-Pump-Cover-with-Wear-Plate

You may need an entire new pump if the front body section is grooved too much.

Personally, if you need a new pump, here is the route I would go: (you will want the pulley unless you're handy with pullers and installers for the pulley - pulley doesn't come with new factory complete seawater pump)

http://www.hardin-marine.com/p-16817-stainless-steel-gen-7-sea-pump-for-mercury-350-496-and-502-mag-with-pulley.aspx

Lastly, I would give your engine a tune-up.

1 new cap & rotor, and 8 NGK ITR4A15 Laser Iridium spark plugs. (latest and greatest spark plug, and is pre-gapped)

http://www.marinepartsplus.com/catalog/mercruiser/serial/5.0L_MPI_ALPHA_BRAVO_EC/884717004/13967-50#898253T22_jump

** Will need a Torx T20 and T15 to re & re the distributor cap and rotor.

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Thanks for your reply, and the links etc - all very helpful as usual thanks. So now Im getting closer here!

Pulled the raw water pump. The sides look and feel fine to me. However both ends have some scouring and look like this. So while it's out I plan to fix that using this kit from Aftermarket Marine. I'll see what effect this has.

thanks again for the advice - Ill report back :D

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