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brclark82

Adding a second battery

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30 minutes ago, Iggy said:

For me "Just because big boats are wired that way, does not make it best practice." it does. Why, I can run the house batteries down as much is I want and I can still get home. If needed, I can use the house bank to start ether of my engines.

I can do all this on a 8' dingy with dual batteries and 10,000W stereo and not have ONE SINGLE LOAD wired direct to a battery. This means when I get home, I turn one switch to OFF and no loads are connected to either bank. I can plug in my 2-bank charger and both banks get charged based on their AH and state of discharge. No parasitic draws period. I can drop anchor for 6 days and crank stereo and still fire up on a fresh cranking battery. 

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  I would LOVE  :wub:  someone to write down all the different ways to isolate the house & music battery.  From the must stay charged " Engine Starting Battery ".

I have always used the 2 simple battery    ON.. OFF  switches.  That way I have each bilge pump on a different battery.

Forgetting to turn off anything ?   Will only run down the big house battery. Did that maybe 3 X in 79 years. But the engine battery was /  is totally unaffected.

Edit     I always carry a 20 ' long set of HEAVY DUTY jumper cables.   Just like in my cars.  They help me & you if needed.   20'  are great on bouncing boats.

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26 minutes ago, cyclops2 said:

I would LOVE  :wub:  someone to write down all the different ways to isolate the house & music battery.  From the must stay charged " Engine Starting Battery ".

Sure, its simple. There are two simple, effective, proven ways for single engine boats. No need to reinvent the wheel or do a radical 1-off

A) 1/2/BOTH/OFF switch all loads wired to the "C" post. Its 100% manual so its takes a little education and discipline. Works on all single engine dual bank setups and really good for large Ah banks. 

B) 4 post OFF/ON/COMBINE dual circuit plus switch and ACR/VSR. Turn switch ON when you get in the boat, turn the switch to OFF when you leave the boat, COMBINE if you need an emergency crank. Its a passive/manual system. Effective but best suited for smaller Ah house banks. 

Both system offer cranking bank isolation, a means to charge both banks with alternator, isolating ALL loads from both banks for layup, emergency cranking. 

Its honestly this simple. 

You can dream up any number of ways to wire those switches and batteries, add in diode types of isolaters, use heavy duty continuous duty solenoids, etc. Each variation has its own downsides. Some are obvious, some are predictable while others may not be realized until you experience it. 

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I am sorry, but your a option A is what I am taking about other than adding a VSR. With the VSR, if the switch is set to 1 OR 2, both batteries will be charging as long as the engine is running.  

Both type switches really do the same thing other than Both #1 & #2 are on and the other Ether battery can be on the the other off.  

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Remember this is a NEW boat. The warranty will be void if any problems relate to owner installed equipment.

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9 minutes ago, Big Fun said:

Remember this is a NEW boat. The warranty will be void if any problems relate to owner installed equipment.

+1, that's one of the reasons why I'll be having my dealer add a second house battery.  Don't need any finger pointing if something goes wrong.

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Iggy,

I fully and 100% have understand your use of a 1/2/BOTH/OFF switch and ACR. I have understood it since even before my first post on this forum. And because I fully understand it, I do not prefer it in any way shape or form. I have expressed the reasons in every thread that it comes up. Again, this dislike for it is based on my complete understanding of it and the other systems. If one want the passiveness of an ACR, the dual circuit plus switch is the most ideal switch, NOT the 1/2/BOTH.

53 minutes ago, Iggy said:

Both type switches really do the same thing other than Both #1 & #2 are on and the other Ether battery can be on the the other off.

They actually do not do the same thing at all. 3 posts 4 positions v's 4 posts 3 positions, cant get much more different. 

In bold, is completely incorrect. Both banks are "on" or "off". You cant select one or the other as you state. This is why the switch is called a dual circuit. Its a DPDT switch. Again, vastly different from the traditional 1/2/BOTH/OFF. 

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1 hour ago, Was_Wylie_Tunes said:

Iggy,

I fully and 100% have understand your use of a 1/2/BOTH/OFF switch and ACR. I have understood it since even before my first post on this forum. And because I fully understand it, I do not prefer it in any way shape or form. I have expressed the reasons in every thread that it comes up. Again, this dislike for it is based on my complete understanding of it and the other systems. If one want the passiveness of an ACR, the dual circuit plus switch is the most ideal switch, NOT the 1/2/BOTH.

They actually do not do the same thing at all. 3 posts 4 positions v's 4 posts 3 positions, cant get much more different. 

In bold, is completely incorrect. Both banks are "on" or "off". You cant select one or the other as you state. This is why the switch is called a dual circuit. Its a DPDT switch. Again, vastly different from the traditional 1/2/BOTH/OFF. 

Forgive me, BUT it is not incorrect............. The standard dual switch has 4 settings. On for #1, On for #2, BOTH and OFF. So ether battery can be on and the other off. Giving you more control than the dual circuit. If thats what you want?  In the dual circuit switch, there is only OFF, ON (so both batteries are ON) and combined.  

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1 hour ago, Perseverance said:

+1, that's one of the reasons why I'll be having my dealer add a second house battery.  Don't need any finger pointing if something goes wrong.

If its done right, there should be no finger pointing. This type of setup, is more the norm than not.

But the other question in this is. How handy are you and can you do this right? Sizing the cables, adding the connectors if needed and more.

I would first talk to the dealer, tell him what you are doing. Then go from there. My dealer after talking to them had no problems with me modifying the battery setup. Richard might remember, but one of the first post I talked to the engineer at Charp and he agreed with me on what I wanted to do because I did not care for there setup. But as he put it, how much money do you want to throw at it and still make it idiot proof.  

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2 minutes ago, Iggy said:

But the other question in this is. How handy are you and can you do this right? Sizing the cables, adding the connectors if needed and more.

I'm pretty handy and like to get into the nitty gritty but, where life and property are concerned, I know my limitations and like to sleep well at night!  I have no problem doing like replacements but new installs, I usually leave to the professionals.  :D

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;I installed the "Add -A-Battery kit. I like the idea in the immortal words of "Ron Poppiel" , The infomercial king of the Poppiels pocket fisherman and that rotisserie that he sold, "Just set it and forget it" .  Iggy is right, you cant just isolate battery 2 for starting purposes, however, the system uses that battery only while at anchor for toys and keeps battery 1 safe for starting.  While underway, the charger directs  juice to battery one first, then to battery 2.

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On 3/21/2017 at 6:06 PM, Was_Wylie_Tunes said:

Sure, its simple. There are two simple, effective, proven ways for single engine boats. No need to reinvent the wheel or do a radical 1-off

A) 1/2/BOTH/OFF switch all loads wired to the "C" post. Its 100% manual so its takes a little education and discipline. Works on all single engine dual bank setups and really good for large Ah banks. 

B) 4 post OFF/ON/COMBINE dual circuit plus switch and ACR/VSR. Turn switch ON when you get in the boat, turn the switch to OFF when you leave the boat, COMBINE if you need an emergency crank. Its a passive/manual system. Effective but best suited for smaller Ah house banks. 

Both system offer cranking bank isolation, a means to charge both banks with alternator, isolating ALL loads from both banks for layup, emergency cranking. 

Its honestly this simple. 

You can dream up any number of ways to wire those switches and batteries, add in diode types of isolaters, use heavy duty continuous duty solenoids, etc. Each variation has its own downsides. Some are obvious, some are predictable while others may not be realized until you experience it. 

@Was_Wylie_Tunes  so I kinda gave up on this back when I first asked it because I couldn't wrap my head around what you 2 were debating, but I think I'm starting to understand now that I've looked into it a little more. I didn't understand in your preferred setup what the difference between on and combined was and how you knew you weren't draining the cranking battery.  Let me see if I get it and correct me if I'm wrong. 

The setup you prefer has the starter wired to the cranking battery post and that is all, while everything else is wired to the house battery post so even while underway the radio is running off of house battery so there is no way to drain the cranking battery and no switching except on to start the day and off to end the day. The combine option I can't imagine would ever be used in this scenario but is there for backup in case. 

The other setup everything would be wired to the battery selected (1 or 2) so theoretically there would be a possibility of running the cranking battery down if you forgot to switch it.

Is this correct and if so are there any other benefits to either setup I'm missing?

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9 minutes ago, brclark82 said:

what the difference between on and combined was

With the dual circuit plus switch and ACR setup: On means "A" loads draw from "A" battery and "B" loads draw from "B" battery. Combine means that A loads and A battery are electrically connected through the switch to B loads and B switch. As long as the switch was in ON and not COMBINE, the two banks are isolated from each other. 

 

15 minutes ago, brclark82 said:

The setup you prefer has the starter wired to the cranking battery post and that is all, while everything else is wired to the house battery post s

In a sense. Basically, if its required to make the boat go, we want it to draw off the main cranking side. if we want to have it on when at anchored, we wire it to the house side. 

18 minutes ago, brclark82 said:

while underway the radio is running off of house battery so there is no way to drain the cranking battery and no switching except on to start the day and off to end the day. The combine option I can't imagine would ever be used in this scenario but is there for backup in case. 

Yes and the house bank is even getting charged by the alternator while the engine is running. 

 

20 minutes ago, brclark82 said:

The other setup everything would be wired to the battery selected (1 or 2) so theoretically there would be a possibility of running the cranking battery down if you forgot to switch it.

In both setups, everything is still drawing through the switch and in both setups, there is a combine position that can lead to both banks being drawn down while on the hook. 

With the simple 1/2/BOTH switch, with the switch in the correct position, you can always keep one battery isolated for re-firing the engine. You can also go as far as designating one bank for engine cranking and one for using while on the hook. 

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On 3/21/2017 at 10:41 AM, brclark82 said:

Thanks for all the help everyone, but I'm about as confused as I was when I started the thread. Why are there so many different gd options for adding a second battery. I'll continue to research it and take your recommendations into consideration when doing that research. 

Right now it looks like I'm leaning towards the exact setup @Perseverance just suggested and use the same type of battery that comes with the boat.

On my boat I have a starting battery (1000MCA) and a deep cycle (690MCA) and an onboard charger. I use the starting battery to run, and switch to the deep cycle for listening to tunes while on the hook. I added a battery selector switch before the original on/off switch, so my setup only charges the connected battery when the boat is running, but that's OK, as I have the onboard charger. I like a simple system.

With the onboard charger I always have both batteries fully charged when I head out. I have not killed the deep cycle, even after hours of playing tunes. I carry a jump box, as a backup, and to jump others who don't have a 2nd battery. 

brick

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10 minutes ago, Was_Wylie_Tunes said:

I also like a traditional 1/2/BOTH switch. 

So what was the debate between you and @Iggy about?  

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44 minutes ago, Was_Wylie_Tunes said:

Misinformation. 

If my memory is right, it was over this?? "With the dual circuit plus switch and ACR setup: On means "A" loads draw from "A" battery and "B" loads draw from "B" battery. Combine means that A loads and A battery are electrically connected through the switch to B loads and B switch. As long as the switch was in ON and not COMBINE, the two banks are isolated from each other."  Yes, I agree!!

But both loads would be on and both batteries would be in use. Thats great if thats what you want........... I would rather have full control, you may want one ON and the other OFF. I don't care for that dual circuit switch, but theirs nothing wrong with it as long as you understand how it is going to work.

Personally, but its more work to set up. I would rather have three ON - OFF battery switches. One for each circuit and the 3rd one to combine and one ARC. Having full control. OR the plain dual battery setup with an ARC. I am talking about a boat with one engine. 

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From the way the dual circuit switch is wired would anything that you would want connected to the cranking battery be drawing any power when the engine isn't running or cranking?

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6 minutes ago, brclark82 said:

From the way the dual circuit switch is wired would anything that you would want connected to the cranking battery be drawing any power when the engine isn't running or cranking?

If I understand your question, it would be "yes".  As in a bilge pump that is connected to the battery. 

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It seems the 1/2/both switch is much easier to install, does this seem correct?

Also, as long as I'm the only one using the switch and I don't turn it off while the engine is running there is no reason to get the switch with the alternator field disconnect correct?  

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16 minutes ago, brclark82 said:

It seems the 1/2/both switch is much easier to install, does this seem correct?

Also, as long as I'm the only one using the switch and I don't turn it off while the engine is running there is no reason to get the switch with the alternator field disconnect correct?  

Yes, that is correct on the field disconnect. On the switch, that is a matter of opinion. Myself, I would go with the dual switch as you mentioned. 

 I would install a VSR too. So no matter how the switch is set with the engine running. Both batteries would be charging.

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14 hours ago, brclark82 said:

From the way the dual circuit switch is wired would anything that you would want connected to the cranking battery be drawing any power when the engine isn't running or cranking?

Only if you turn on what that load may be. So back to an earlier statement. If you want to run it with the engine off, connect to the house bank. If its needed to make the boat go, connect it to the main cranking. 

Yes, the dual circuit plus/ACR setup is a little more complicated compared to a traditional 1/2/BOTH switch. But in the end, you get passive/manual setup compared to a 100% manual setup with the 1/2/BOTH. 

With the DCP/ACR you jump in the boat and turn the switch to on. Slip or trailer the the boat at the end of the day, turn the switch to off. NOTHING else needs to be thunk about through the day whether you are cruising or anchored. 

11 hours ago, Iggy said:

So no matter how the switch is set with the engine running. Both batteries would be charging.

And the same is true with the dual circuit plus switch and ACR setup. Switch ON, alternator charge goes through the ACR, switch on COMBINE, alternator charge is already going to the main cranking bank and now goes through switch to the house bank. This is not an opinion, but a technical fact.  

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Ok thanks so much everyone for all the info. I finally understand the different options and what the pros/cons of each are.  Still trying to decide which way to go.  I think I would like to go the DCP/ACR route but would also like to learn and do it myself so the easier option may be better. Also have to figure out what battery, battery tray, extra wiring etc I need to go with it.

In the end I'm sure it would be easier to just take it to the dealer but I would like to learn how to do it myself. 

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