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watson524

Went to see a used boat today, looking for opinions on various things

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13 hours ago, Toddavid said:

I don't get this statement. There is a broader torque curve with the VVT on the 6.0 VP vs 8.2 big block. I've never, ever had issues getting out of the hole, even with 4 adults/3 kids on board and all of them sitting in the stern. And then up to a 52mph top speed on a hot summer day, with similar weight, and all our gear on board. 

Not to sound too much like a VP fanboy, but the broad powerband plus the 250-300lbs weight savings plus the ease of service (especially in the tight engine bay of the Sunesta) makes the VP a strong contender. 

 

I see you were in this thread, too, and Shep, who works on VP and Merc, seems to agree with the VP superiority:

 

Okay so here goes without offending you or your choice in engine and motor combos meaning VP vs. Merc. The 6.0 VP 380 is a GM LS Based truck engine used in the GM HD pickup trucks. VP and your engine are considerably lower cost for any manufacturer to procure for new boat construction. Mechanics also love them because the cost of replacement parts is also considerably higher than Mercury. Mercury owns and operates one of the most technologically advanced engine plants in the world. They even have there own foundry where they produce their own engine blocks, cranks and heads. Their R&D program is far more advanced than Volvo Penta. Volvo makes comfortable profit on there engine and drive packages and so do manufacturers.Thats why they sell so many, but that is changing. Back to my original comment. Torq moves the boat period. rather the engine has 380 hp or 250 hp. The larger cubic inch 8.2 will  work at 50% duty load vs. the small block 6.0 which operates at 75-80 percent duty load. In the short term the small block feels just as powerful, however after a few years of constant use such as towing tubes and hauling heavy loads against current and winds etc. your maint cost will be considerably higher with the 6.0. Mercury tried using chevy blocks with there 8.1 496 but even that combo had its issues. in regards to the 6.2 engine it requires premium fuel 91 octain or higher which also impacts your operating cost. Shepard did not even respond to that comment I made because he is aware of the detonation issues with Ethonal based fuels or non Ethonal 87 octane. a 287 full fuel and fully loaded and optioned weighs at least 7250 lbs. The 6.0 truck engine is not really designed to manage that much load. Besides the VP outdrives are junk in my opinion. Look at how many posts here on the forum are related to maint and failure issues with there drives. Thats why you can no longer get a high torque big block from volvo any more. Now from a true performance perspective. Volvo does not even exist in that market. Just Saying enjoy your boat and don't be so sensitive. If you do your own maint, you can probably make it live for a long time.

 

P.S. My boat weight is 5895 lbs. and runs 62 knots all day long with 5 less h.p. than yours.....

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13 hours ago, Toddavid said:

I don't get this statement. There is a broader torque curve with the VVT on the 6.0 VP vs 8.2 big block. I've never, ever had issues getting out of the hole, even with 4 adults/3 kids on board and all of them sitting in the stern. And then up to a 52mph top speed on a hot summer day, with similar weight, and all our gear on board. 

Not to sound too much like a VP fanboy, but the broad powerband plus the 250-300lbs weight savings plus the ease of service (especially in the tight engine bay of the Sunesta) makes the VP a strong contender. 

 

I see you were in this thread, too, and Shep, who works on VP and Merc, seems to agree with the VP superiority:

 

PM Replied to Toddavid. I stand by my original opinion. Just saying

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 Disregard the weight differences.  It has NO   NO  effect on the boat performance in the water.

Why do I say that ?  because the 250 pounds is is going to have the exact same effect on performance as ADDING  1, just 1 large sized adult.  Should / will not /  even notice the weight difference.

The throttle lever WILL also make the gasoline consumption difference 0 when you add a load of people.

If you can afford the bigger engines ?  Buy 1 of them. 

I say these things after buying a couple of standard sized engines & going thru the expense of many props to find the best one............................Bless Powertech & their prop exchange program. I use the Factory Tech Reps. Then placed the order with Prop Gods.

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Okay so here goes without offending you or your choice in engine and motor combos meaning VP vs. Merc.

Ok, I really don't want to derail this thread, and turn this into a peeing match, but some things here need to be challenged:

 

Quote

The 6.0 VP 380 is a GM LS Based truck engine used in the GM HD pickup trucks. VP and your engine are considerably lower cost for any manufacturer to procure for new boat construction. Mechanics also love them because the cost of replacement parts is also considerably higher than Mercury.

 

Mechanics make their money off of labor, not parts (shop owners do). When a guy like Shep praises the 6.0 over the big block, there's no financial incentive.

 

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Mercury owns and operates one of the most technologically advanced engine plants in the world. They even have there own foundry where they produce their own engine blocks, cranks and heads. Their R&D program is far more advanced than Volvo Penta. Volvo makes comfortable  profit on there engine and drive packages and so do manufacturers. Thats why they sell so many, but that is changing.

Volvo as a company completely dwarfs Mercury. Volvo's resource bench, from their HD truck, to their passenger car, to their commercial marine divisions, is much deeper than Merc's, no offense to Merc.

 

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Back to my original comment. Torq moves the boat period. rather the engine has 380 hp or 250 hp. The larger cubic inch 8.2 will  work at 50% duty load vs. the small block 6.0 which operates at 75-80 percent duty load.

With all due respect, that is incorrect. Volumetric Efficiency is the name of the game with any engine. While torque does move the boat (and HP is simply a mathematical expression of torque), with all things equal (fuel composition, form of induction), VE allows a smaller displacement engine to match the power curve of a larger one.

In this case, VE is superior on the Volvo because of: TECHNOLOGY. The VVT itself brings a lot to the game. Load for a given power output is tied to VE, period. Not displacement.

 

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In the short term the small block feels just as powerful, however after a few years of constant use such as towing tubes and hauling heavy loads against current and winds etc. your maint cost will be considerably higher with the 6.0.

 

Again, load is not higher with the VP engines, they are not being "worked harder" to produce the same torque as the big block, they are simply technically superior and able to produce same power as BB through efficiency gains (TECHNOLOGY). These engines have been in recreational boating wide use since 2013 (2012?). If they were a long term reliability failure, you'd be hearing about that by now (think XDP). You're not.

 

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Mercury tried using chevy blocks with there 8.1 496 but even that combo had its issues. in regards to the 6.2 engine it requires premium fuel 91 octain or higher which also impacts your operating cost. Shepard did not even respond to that comment I made because he is aware of the detonation issues with Ethonal based fuels or non Ethonal 87 octane.

VP and Merc both needed to find alternatives to the BB because GM has phased out the block. VP bit the bullet and moved on first. Now you see Merc finally catching up with their own BB replacement (not the 8.2). And notice they are not sticking with big displacement with their new line of engines.

I have the 6.0, not the new 6.2, and it is spec'd for 87 regular unleaded. I'm not aware that the GenV requires Super. Where the heck do you find Super at a boat marina? Not sure I am buying that mandate, seems that would be an obvious warranty exposure to them via pre-detonation since 91 octane is not readily available on the water.

 

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a 287 full fuel and fully loaded and optioned weighs at least 7250 lbs. The 6.0 truck engine is not really designed to manage that much load.

 

Uh, what? Ever see the GVW ratings of pickup trucks? They are far north of there. You're thinking of dry weight, which is absolutely not what the engine is designed to deal with on a regular basis.

 

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Besides the VP outdrives are junk in my opinion. Look at how many posts here on the forum are related to maint and failure issues with there drives. Thats why you can no longer get a high torque big block from volvo any more . Now from a true performance perspective. Volvo does not even exist in that market. Just Saying enjoy your boat and don't be so sensitive. If you do your own maint, you can probably make it live for a long time.

I'm not a brand fanboy. I've owned Merc and VP, Merc served me well. But I'm also not "stuck in the past" and can appreciate technological advances when I see them:

Better VE

Equal if not better performance than BB

250-300lbs lighter than BB

Considerably more service room in engine compartment

 

Again, not looking to get into a measuring contest here, just arguing for the facts.

Quote

P.S. My boat weight is 5895 lbs. and runs 62 knots all day long with 5 less h.p. than yours.....

Besides the extra wet length I am dragging around, I outweigh you by quite a bit. BB in my boat is basically equal in top end, while drinking a lot more fuel to get there.

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10 hours ago, Daytripper said:

 

P.S. My boat weight is 5895 lbs. and runs 62 knots all day long with 5 less h.p. than yours.....

Wow. That's 71+ mph.

My boat hits 50...

brick

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Are you people  ALL propping for WOT alone in the boat ? 

Or doing the real propping for a FULL ? MAXIMUM load of people, food, toys and pulling a water person ? 

2 entirely different props. No avoiding it. 

Edit

I jumped into the water & changed props based on the load I would carry.

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Geese a lot of unfounded info here.  Either way what you described seems consistent with use in salt and seems to be alright.  Minor fastener rust is a few bucks and a screw driver, gel coat work a few hundred bucks.  Seems nothing crazy there.  Guess it comes down to cost.  You say they are not that much different in cost,  we talking within 10%  20%?  Within 10% id guess id opt for new, 20% or more then I would have to think about it.  Just remember when pricing new the sticker on the web page always looks good until you add options, trailers, and finally taxes and other fees. 

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Just to clear up, from the Volvo 6.2 spec sheet:

Power and fuel consumption measurements according to ISO 8665. Fuel octane of 90 RON (87 AKI) with 0% ethanol and density of 742g/liter, air temperature at 25°C (77°F), humidity of 30% and barometric pressure at 100 kPa (14.5 PSI). Operation at different conditions will influence engine power output and fuel consumption.

I have no dog in this hunt, as the little V-P 5.0 in my 225 hits just north of 45 MPH on a good day, but suspect that either powertrain combo is going to be just fine for most everyone.  Mercury and V-P wouldn't remain in business if either sold garbage.  If you can get the features you want at a good value in a used boat, I see the 8.2 Merc vs. the 6.2 V-P as not much of a differentiator, vs. the litany of other things that matter a lot on a boat.

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20 minutes ago, sburke91 said:

Just to clear up, from the Volvo 6.2 spec sheet:

Power and fuel consumption measurements according to ISO 8665. Fuel octane of 90 RON (87 AKI) with 0% ethanol and density of 742g/liter, air temperature at 25°C (77°F), humidity of 30% and barometric pressure at 100 kPa (14.5 PSI). Operation at different conditions will influence engine power output and fuel consumption.

I have no dog in this hunt, as the little V-P 5.0 in my 225 hits just north of 45 MPH on a good day, but suspect that either powertrain combo is going to be just fine for most everyone.  Mercury and V-P wouldn't remain in business if either sold garbage.  If you can get the features you want at a good value in a used boat, I see the 8.1 Merc vs. the 6.2 V-P as not much of a differentiator, vs. the litany of other things that matter a lot on a boat.

Ive had both and if somebody didn't put a sticker on as an operator I would have never known the difference.  Until recently the actual engines were the same short of a few engine dressing items.  I found the Volvo to be easier to work on but parts not as easy to find.

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13 hours ago, brick said:

Wow. That's 71+ mph.

My boat hits 50...

brick

Don't be such a a dick-The calculator I used was reversed my boat runs (last weekend) 53.87 knots or 62 MPH.  My boat sips fuel compared to my friends 264 with the 6.0 380 VP. He's also had it in the shop for multiple issues and my 09 236SSX has never had to go back to the dealer for any repairs since it was new. You probably don't even know how to change your own oil or plugs. You guys crack me up lol......

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3 minutes ago, Daytripper said:

Don't be such a a dick-The calculator I used was reversed my boat runs (last weekend) 53.87 knots or 62 MPH.  My boat sips fuel compared to my friends 264 with the 6.0 380 VP. He's also had it in the shop for multiple issues and my 09 236SSX has never had to go back to the dealer for any repairs since it was new. You probably don't even know how to change your own oil or plugs. You guys crack me up lol......

Wow, rage much?? I know how to change oil, plugs and rebuild an engine.... and I'm a girl. That probably blows your mind.

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4 minutes ago, watson524 said:

Wow, rage much?? I know how to change oil, plugs and rebuild an engine.... and I'm a girl. That probably blows your mind.

Not at all I enjoy these conversations and have nothing against any genders. Why are you posting when you don't even have a dog in the discussion?

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23 minutes ago, Daytripper said:

Don't be such a a dick-The calculator I used was reversed my boat runs (last weekend) 53.87 knots or 62 MPH.  My boat sips fuel compared to my friends 264 with the 6.0 380 VP. He's also had it in the shop for multiple issues and my 09 236SSX has never had to go back to the dealer for any repairs since it was new. You probably don't even know how to change your own oil or plugs. You guys crack me up lol......

I was impressed with how fast your boat was. 

brick

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3 minutes ago, watson524 said:

Um.... I started the thread (which has been sidetracked).....

If you start a thread and ask for members opinions than you shouldn't be offended by the responses. I only agreed with Cyclops2's opinion and then all the VP owners jumped in. I received a PM from Todddavid and responded to him privately and somehow it ended up here. I personally like all Chaparrals and really don't care what out drive or engine combo any one has, but there has always been issues with these types of threads comparing VP to Merc. Then you get smart asses like Brick saying "someone is drinking the black cool aid" I think a lot of people are just pissed because their season is over and they have to put their boats away for another 6 months. While here in Florida we are just getting started.

Regardless, I'm a Merc 496 BB guy and thats just the way it is.  How much longer to you want to keep this stupid thread going???

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I never asked for an opinion on the power of the engine or Merc vs Volvo... my single question related to the motor was due to the bubbling of paint on the outdrive. Nothing to do with power, Black vs Gray or anything. Most of the info in the thread has been valuable to me, as are most of the threads on the forum. In general it's a very knowledgeable bunch and I appreciate the time people take to answer my questions. That being said, since I'm not the thread police, I guess the thread will go on as long as people feel compelled to chime in.

P.S. I am not offended by the response to my questions, I'm offended by your rude comment in response to Brick and summarily saying that these fine folks probably don't know how to change their oil.

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When did brick say anything about cool aid... 

Back to the op, if the difference in deer isn't that much I'd go with new. Would hold its value better and have more warranty. But if the used is 20% or so better than would probably look hard at that. Either way get one and enjoy it!

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6 minutes ago, watson524 said:

I never asked for an opinion on the power of the engine or Merc vs Volvo... my single question related to the motor was due to the bubbling of paint on the outdrive. Nothing to do with power, Black vs Gray or anything. Most of the info in the thread has been valuable to me, as are most of the threads on the forum. In general it's a very knowledgeable bunch and I appreciate the time people take to answer my questions. That being said, since I'm not the thread police, I guess the thread will go on as long as people feel compelled to chime in.

P.S. I am not offended by the response to my questions, I'm offended by your rude comment in response to Brick and summarily saying that these fine folks probably don't know how to change their oil.

Then you should read every one's reply besides mine. Plenty of rudeness to go around. Again I agreed with Cyclops2 post. I think Brick was equally as rude, but unless your his wife I would let him speak for himself. For the record most people don't know how to change their own oil and I also stated plugs as well. By the way did you buy the boat since you started this thread?

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I have made over 6000 posts here, and have never said anything negative about VP, (with the exception of the XDP drive issue). I have a Merc because that is what my dealer serviced.

brick

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32 minutes ago, watson524 said:

Um.... I started the thread (which has been sidetracked).....

Best response. 

brick

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Easy lads...you guys both raise valid points and I feel you both know your stuff.

 

Merc and Volvo both make good products and I wish they would both steal each others good ideas and drop their poor ones. 

Volvo is such a PITA to look up parts for, but I do find them easier to work on. Merc's warranty system is far easier to use IMHO too. Prefer the shift movement of the 2005 and newer Bravo drives to the newer Volvo DPS-A and DPS-B drives. Steering feel is a little light and effortless for my liking on the Volvo's vs Merc, but that is a personal preference.

Before I drove the new Volvo GM LS series 6.0L V8-380 and V8-430 engines, I was VERY skeptical that they would hold up vs proven big block V8 power. After driving them, and having serviced them since 2012 or so, the 6.0L engines I've been around have held up with very few issues. Only issues that come to mind are the heat exchanger recall work from a few years ago, and currently the recall to replace the plastic exhaust adapter on the risers with nickel coated brass adapters for early version V8-380 and V8-430 engines.

The most common failures I've seen on the Volvo power trains of the modern era has been leaking drive yoke seals, power steering actuators and power trim cylinders which in truth is really related to the drive/transom design and not the engine. Happens on both old school Volvo small block and new small block engines. Thankfully the power trim cylinder design was changed several years ago. Possible the yoke seal leaks are a result of over filling the Volvo drives with too much gear oil, which can happen pretty easily if a person is not paying attention. For our area in fresh water, muskrats sadly like to chew on the plastic power trim hoses - wish they'd kept using braided ss power trim hoses like in the past.

To be fair, Joe's 236 SSx is essentially a 220 SSi with big block power - aka REALLY fast and fun boat with big block V8 power - intoxicating. Would hesitate to guess at lowest RPM it would stay on plane with that engine, but probably quite low. General cruising speed would cover a lot of territory at 3200 RPM - very longed legged and effortless feel. Friends 264 Sunesta is a good deal heavier and has 2 degrees more dead rise with similar power output working against it for top speed and fuel economy numbers. In short, that 236 SSx is a fun and rewarding ride.

Volvo could probably opt for the LS-A or maybe newer LT-4 supercharged engine to reach 550+ hp but don't seem interested in that market for whatever reason.

Wish Merc had brought their QCV4 engine series down to the 380 plus hp range by making a smaller cubic inch and detuned version.  That is a serious engine that can run wide open pretty much all day. We'll see how the direct injection works out long term reliability wise for the new Volvo 6.2L, 5.3L and 4.3L engines. Only time will tell. FWIW, in our area, we can only get 91 octane fuel with no ethanol for marinas.

Unless someone has a direct question to me, this will be my only post to this thread.

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3 minutes ago, Shepherd1 said:

 

Easy lads...you guys both raise valid points and I feel you both know your stuff.

 

Merc and Volvo both make good products and I wish they would both steals each others good ideas and drop their poor ones. 

Volvo is such a PITA to look up parts for, but I do find them easier to work on. Merc's warranty system is far easier to use IMHO too. Prefer the shift movement of the 2005 and newer Bravo drives to the newer Volvo DPS-A and DPS-B drives. Steering feel is a little light and effortless for my liking on the Volvo's vs Merc, but that is a personal preference.

Before I drove the new Volvo GM LS series 6.0L V8-380 and V8-430 engines, I was VERY skeptical that they would hold up vs proven big block V8 power. After driving them, and having serviced them since 2012 or so, the 6.0L engines I've been around have held up with very few issues. Only issues that come to mind are the heat exchanger recall work from a few years ago, and currently the recall to replace the plastic exhaust adapter on the risers with nickel coated brass adapters for early version V8-380 and V8-430 engines.

The most common failures I've seen on the Volvo power trains of the modern era has been leaking drive yoke seals, power steering actuators and power trim cylinders which in truth is really related to the drive/transom design and not the engine. Happens on both old school Volvo small block and new small block engines. Thankfully the power trim cylinder design was changed several years ago. Possible the yoke seal leaks are a result of over filling the Volvo drives with too much gear oil, which can happen pretty easily if a person is not paying attention. For our area in fresh water, muskrats sadly like to chew on the plastic power trim hoses - wish they'd kept using braided ss power trim hoses like in the past.

To be fair, Joe's 236 SSx is essentially a 220 SSi with big block power - aka REALLY fast and fun boat with big block V8 power - intoxicating. Would hesitate to guess at lowest RPM it would stay on plane with that engine, but probably quite low. General cruising speed would cover a lot of territory at 3200 RPM - very longed legged and effortless feel. Friends 264 Sunesta is a good deal heavier and has 2 degrees more dead rise with similar power output working against it for top speed and fuel economy numbers. In short, that 236 SSx is a fun and rewarding ride.

Volvo could probably opt for the LS-A or maybe newer LT-4 supercharged engine to reach 550+ hp but don't seem interested in that market for whatever reason.

Wish Merc had brought their QCV4 engine series down to the 380 plus hp range by making a smaller cubic inch and detuned version.  That is a serious engine that can run wide open pretty much all day. We'll see how the direct injection works out long term reliability wise for the new Volvo 6.2L, 5.3L and 4.3L engines. Only time will tell. FWIW, in our area, we can only get 91 octane fuel with no ethanol for marinas.

Unless someone has a direct question to me, this will be my only post to this thread.

+1

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