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Brunswick selling SeaRay

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On 12/9/2017 at 0:20 PM, Wingnut said:

Best friends in Sugarland, and sister is in LaMarque so perhaps dinner is on me in your hood.

Cool 

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i just recently attended a seminar hosted by a pontoon manufacturer.  In that seminar, total marine sales and product mix was posted.  Interesting facts jumped off the page.

1.  Outboard powered boats sold from June of 16 thru June of 17 were 89% of total boat sales.

2. Stern driives inboards only accounted for 10% of the US market.

3. Stern drive sales have been flat since they bottomed out during the last recession.  

4.The pocket cruiser market has been abysmal for the same period. 

Total units sold during the period above was 200,000 units.  Total units sold in the year preceding the recession was 300,000 unit.  

It is evident that the industry has still not fully recovered form the last recession.  

As for Sea Ray, I think they will be fine.  Whoever gets them gets a massive infrastructure, engineering, test facilities, multiple plant locations, etc.  IMHO whoever buys them will do away with any redundancy, open up the options from multiple engine manufacturers, since they will no longer be married to Mercury. 

Sea Ray is an Iconic name with a good reputation overall.   If they get streamlined and get aggressive with their pricing, it will have an effect on the entire boat building industry.

Al

 

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I still say the 2008 Depression is with us.  Major companies are laying off again.  G E 12,000 more decent jobs. Those people bought or gave used Sea Rays to relatives.

We are headed for non billionaire extinction.  Going to take a while.

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One of the things that needs to happen is interest rates need to go up.  Everybody thinks it's great because they can borrow money so cheap, but low rates kill savings growth, too.

 

 

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4 hours ago, newboat2016 said:

One of the things that needs to happen is interest rates need to go up.  Everybody thinks it's great because they can borrow money so cheap, but low rates kill savings growth, too.

 

 

I agree but banks are making more money off your loans than they are if you were to put more into savings and CDs.  Its a big game without banks cars, toys, and houses wont sell.

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On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 11:13 AM, Waterfun said:

I wonder how many people could take that advice??

Are you saying there should be a "boat in every garage" regardless of income?  It's simple, you can either afford a boat, or not(IMO).  If you have to finance to 10 or 15 years, you should probably reduce the amount you can spend.  I bought a "Project" boat, a 1992 Signature 280 at auction for $4900(I had a budget of 10K) expecting that there would be some significant expenses between date of purchase and my physically using the boat as intended.  As a Mechanical Engineer, and a decent mechanic, I knew that I would be doing most of the work myself, but that was part of the appeal.  I realize that everyone wants the nicest, newest, best, but it's about time America started living within our means from Congress down to the individual.

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15 hours ago, JPFunk said:

Are you saying there should be a "boat in every garage" regardless of income?  It's simple, you can either afford a boat, or not(IMO).  If you have to finance to 10 or 15 years, you should probably reduce the amount you can spend.  I bought a "Project" boat, a 1992 Signature 280 at auction for $4900(I had a budget of 10K) expecting that there would be some significant expenses between date of purchase and my physically using the boat as intended.  As a Mechanical Engineer, and a decent mechanic, I knew that I would be doing most of the work myself, but that was part of the appeal.  I realize that everyone wants the nicest, newest, best, but it's about time America started living within our means from Congress down to the individual.

ive gone to 10 on a boat heres why.  It allowed me the flexibility to have lower payments when needed, but I was also able to bump up payments when I wanted and typically interest rates were the same at 10 as they were at 5 or 6 or very close.  But I was disciplined I never let them get past 5 years,  think I paid off one in 3 years and the other in 5.  You are right, past 10 years people are out of their mind, they will try to justify it all they can, but like you said past 10 years probably time to scale back

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17 hours ago, JPFunk said:

Are you saying there should be a "boat in every garage" regardless of income?

No, that's not what I'm saying and I have no idea how you can interpret that way. I'm just wondering how many people can & do pay cash for a 100-500k boat. Simple.

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1 hour ago, soldier4402 said:

ive gone to 10 on a boat heres why.  It allowed me the flexibility to have lower payments when needed, but I was also able to bump up payments when I wanted and typically interest rates were the same at 10 as they were at 5 or 6 or very close.  But I was disciplined I never let them get past 5 years,  think I paid off one in 3 years and the other in 5.  You are right, past 10 years people are out of their mind, they will try to justify it all they can, but like you said past 10 years probably time to scale back

That's the same reason I do 10 years on my boat loan.  A significant part of my income comes from commissions.  It would be highly unlikely for me to have a long period without earning commissions (I'd probably get fired!!!), but I base my entire budget on being able to pay my bills using only my base salary. That keeps my spending in check, and make sure I wouldn't have more required expenses than income if I hit a bad sales period.  The 10 year loan lets me stay with in my budgeting "rules". However, since my income is typically much higher, it's easy for me to pay down the balance of a loan quickly.

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6 minutes ago, newboat2016 said:

That's the same reason I do 10 years on my boat loan.  A significant part of my income comes from commissions.  It would be highly unlikely for me to have a long period without earning commissions (I'd probably get fired!!!), but I base my entire budget on being able to pay my bills using only my base salary. That keeps my spending in check, and make sure I wouldn't have more required expenses than income if I hit a bad sales period.  The 10 year loan lets me stay with in my budgeting "rules". However, since my income is typically much higher, it's easy for me to pay down the balance of a loan quickly.

Loans can be great way to enforce a budget, and like I said loans can be healthy, theres a point and that point is different for everybody.  Of course the downfall of a loan is you lose your job or something happens your stuck with a bill that you cant rid of unless you sell or repo.  A 15-20 year note on a boat would be like doing 50 years on a house, crazy and I can write that off too but nowhere does it make it sense.

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5 hours ago, Waterfun said:

No, that's not what I'm saying and I have no idea how you can interpret that way. I'm just wondering how many people can & do pay cash for a 100-500k boat. Simple.

Not many are rich enough to pay this kind of cash on a whim. Not an average Joe and not without doing some planning and being financially disciplined. If you want something badly, there is always a way. Instant gratification way, low or no down payment and long term bank loan and interest to pay later, or the old fashion way ... wait, save as you go, put the money in high interest account or into CDs/bonds and pay interest to yourself, and when you have enough, buy it outright or with a large down payment and a small short term loan. Yeah, one needs to wait and work for it for a period of time, not a popular way, I know.

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22 minutes ago, Richard W said:

Not many are rich enough to pay this kind of cash on a whim. Not an average Joe and not without doing some planning and being financially disciplined. If you want something badly, there is always a way. Instant gratification way, low or no down payment and long term bank loan and interest to pay later, or the old fashion way ... wait, save as you go, put the money in high interest account or into CDs/bonds and pay interest to yourself, and when you have enough, buy it outright or with a large down payment and a small short term loan. Yeah, one needs to wait and work for it for a period of time, not a popular way, I know.

considering bonds and CDs are at about 1.5% at 500 month you would be waiting around for 15 years or more.  Better find a better investment or find something cheaper.

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You misunderstood the old fashion way approach ...

You SAVE the money for a boat, month by month or whenever you have extra disposable income, and put it to work by generating some however meager income (from interest) to boost your savings. Then, when you have saved enough, you buy your boat using your savings and the generated income. Alternative way is to get a loan upfront and pay not so meager interest to a bank. When CDs pay 1.5% to you, the bank loan costs you at least 4.5% or more for a boat purchase. A 6% spread ... to each his own .... :)

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My low rate Home Equity allowed me to buy new. enjoy the boat for interest only. sell it. Kept all my principal...........I effectively leased / rented for peanuts. Am doing the same money deal with my second 2002 Chap 186 SSI. Use the banks money.    But be careful if the Republicans wipeout tax deductable  interest.   Saving cash on hand is easier than earning it at 80.

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There's a reason that banks have nice big buildings.  They are paid to shuffle money from one person to another and take a cut every time it changes hands.  I'm not anti-bank, but in general people have become much too reliant on "cheap" money borrowed from banks and the Government(Student Loans).  This "cheap" money has done nothing but make everything more expensive(cars, trucks, boats, homes, etc.).  I don't mean to sound cynical or older than Cyclops, but something is going to have to change or we're going to see another "bubble" pop in the future.  I grew up on a dryland bean farm where you never knew what the harvest would produce, so we learned to save our money, and only by what was necessary, and only borrow if absolutely necessary.  Yes, there were some occasions where the tax advisor would say that we needed to buy a piece of equipment to offset some of the income to avoid a tax burden, but that was rare.  However, that piece of equipment was always an asset(something used to make a profit in the future), and never a liability(something that only costs you money in the future).  In our current discussion, I would suggest that 99.5% of the time a boat would qualify only as a liability.  I am of the same school as Richard W above.  I have multiple interest bearing savings accounts that withdraw funds from my pay, my two favorites are "Home Improvements", and "Boat Fund".  I don't buy parts for the boat until there is sufficient funds in the account to pay for said parts, this account also pays for the fuel and fees to go boating.  I grew up fishing Lake Powell in the same 1973 16' StarCraft(same age as myself), after I started my family in the late 90's, my dad splurged and bought a 1983 open bow aluminum runabout, so frugality would appear to run in the family.  I really don't mean to step on any toes, but interest is money paid unnecessarily(IMO).  I will admit that I did borrow money to start a small business back in 2007 after graduating college, it was a necessity at the time, and I wish It hadn't been necessary(small business loans tend to have interest rates akin to loan sharks rates).  Lessons learned. 

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I guess I have been kind of a middle ground guy. Financed my last two boats but paid half up front and financed the other half. Only did 5 year loans, too. No 10s or above for me. No way......

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I just bought a new boat.... I took out a 20 year loan.... you only live once and life is short ... I put down 20 percent....this is my second boat.....being with family and friends is priceless......I will make some extra payments and when it's time to sell I will worry about it then....I am responsible and have saved for retirement (5) years.......to go.....some times in life you just have to go for it....have fun....

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Good for you ... you had/have the plan, you have the means, and you went for it. As they say, time is money, but also money can buy you some time and make things happen sooner if you can afford it. Sometimes it is worth it ... Enjoy!

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8 hours ago, sweetlou said:
8 hours ago, sweetlou said:

I just bought a new boat.... I took out a 20 year loan.... you only live once and life is short ... I put down 20 percent....this is my second boat.....being with family and friends is priceless......I will make some extra payments and when it's time to sell I will worry about it then....I am responsible and have saved for retirement (5) years.......to go.....some times in life you just have to go for it....have fun....

You only live life once.... May as well enjoy it the way you want. God willing you'll have so many years of memories and good times on your boat that it will have seemed you should have done it years and years before. 

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15 hours ago, Richard W said:

You misunderstood the old fashion way approach ...

You SAVE the money for a boat, month by month or whenever you have extra disposable income, and put it to work by generating some however meager income (from interest) to boost your savings. Then, when you have saved enough, you buy your boat using your savings and the generated income. Alternative way is to get a loan upfront and pay not so meager interest to a bank. When CDs pay 1.5% to you, the bank loan costs you at least 4.5% or more for a boat purchase. A 6% spread ... to each his own .... :)

I get what your saying and I'm not saying you are wrong.  I just go back to overall costs of these boats really makes its either impossible or impractical.  And interest on loans really isn't that bad,  4-5 % for a few years your talking small coin.  Now 4-5 % on 100k over 20, yeah most definitely.   Cost of boats is going kill the business, really it already has.

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11 hours ago, sweetlou said:

......I will make some extra payments and when it's time to sell I will worry about it then....

I hope the best for you, but problem with that statement is 10 years ago when the housing market collapsed all these people crying because they foreclosed said the same thing bought houses on loans they should have never gotten and said they will worry about it later.  best of luck

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13 hours ago, cyclops2 said:

My low rate Home Equity allowed me to buy new. enjoy the boat for interest only. sell it. Kept all my principal...........I effectively leased / rented for peanuts. Am doing the same money deal with my second 2002 Chap 186 SSI. Use the banks money.    But be careful if the Republicans wipeout tax deductable  interest.   Saving cash on hand is easier than earning it at 80.

Was never a fan of lending against a home for toys.  I get the cheap interest.  But essentially your not only paying interest, you are lending against an asset that appreciates that for aliability that wildly depreciates(toy).  Just seems smarter to pay a few more points on a boat loan and not have your home involved.   

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Paying cash for something you can finance cheaply is sometimes quite costly over the long term.  If you buy a $120,000 boat and can finance it for 20 yrs at 5% it will cost you $190,000. If you invest $120,000 for 20 yrs and can earn 3% you will have $216,000 at the end of 20 yrs.  If you could earn 5% you would have $318,000. Long and short of it is, people have to do what makes them the most comfortable.  Making a blanket statement about financing verses paying cash makes being right very difficult.

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I understand what you are saying and it makes sense.... but for me it works like I said I am set for retirement  I have maxed out my 403b and have other retirement investments.... I enjoy life to the fullest if I waited to buy the boat and not finance it I would be to old..... and who knows how long we have left on this planet.... there is no wrong or right its what ever works for you... NOW I can't wait for spring... hope everyone has a good  and safe holiday  and winter.... come on spring......

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3 hours ago, Toolboat said:

Paying cash for something you can finance cheaply is sometimes quite costly over the long term.  If you buy a $120,000 boat and can finance it for 20 yrs at 5% it will cost you $190,000. If you invest $120,000 for 20 yrs and can earn 3% you will have $216,000 at the end of 20 yrs.  If you could earn 5% you would have $318,000. Long and short of it is, people have to do what makes them the most comfortable.  Making a blanket statement about financing verses paying cash makes being right very difficult.

Having this kind of money upfront opens opportunities and options. Loan or cash, whatever, not a challenge at all.

Not having this kind of operating capital upfront and planning to purchase a $100k boat is a challenge where the approach will have a lasting and more pronounce impact on one's life. This is the situation when one needs to be careful and mindful of the consequences ... as already said, the 2007/2008 subprime crisis aka living beyond one's means should be a lesson we all learned from.

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