Jump to content
sanneti2002

SECONDARY BATTERY

Recommended Posts

Hello, I'm a little concerned about adding this second battery. There's a switch box next to the battery with an On/Off switch and a relay (auto bilge and stereo memory), How should I make the connections without damaging any factory equipment? I wanted to add a Blue Sea Systems 7650. This boat came with only one courtesy light, so I'm installing LED lights and USB port chargers. Please post pics if possible. Thanks.

IMG_0347.JPG

IMG_0193.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are multiple ways to do this.  A few questions:

  • What model/year of boat?
  • How do you typically boat?  Off the trailer on weekends, in a slip or at a dock?
  • Do you have 110v electric at the place you store your boat?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its not a hard setup to do, but the wiring scheme is quite different from what you have, and certainly quite different then a traditional 1/2/BOTH switch. In the end, you will have a dedicated house bank for loads you want to run when the engine is off and loads that make the boat go. Everything runs through the DCP switch, with the exception of auto bilge. Id even run the MEM through the switch. Not many people look to their stereo for a clock or pre-set FM stations. If you can find a knowledgeable retailer to source through, they should be able to help you with a custom diagram thats specific to your existing setup. 

In the end, its a great setup. I like it for its passive/manual operation. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You could say that we just had this talk. The 7650 is the add a battery kit. This kit alone has its draw backs. 

https://webtor.me/boat-dual-battery-switch-wiring-diagram.html  Look at this link, more so the first wiring set . Than between the to POS post of the two batteries, install a V.S.R.  http://www.bepmarine.com/en/710-140a

With this setup, no matter how the battery switch is set. Both batteries will be charging and you can run the boat on one battery (sound system and more) and if that battery gets too low. You can start the engine on the other battery. Which the add a battery kit, you can not. This gives you full control. Also take turns on powering the boat's sound system and starting. Another thing the Add a battery kit can not do.

You can always add a on board charger later. The big this is, what loads will you have and how long for? Based on that, what size battery or batteries will you need.

Not to step on anyone's toe's, it is not quite different than what you have. Your simply, replacing the battery switch, adding a battery and two cables. Than if you want the VSR, mount that and connecting 3 small wires (12 to 10 gauge size), one to ground and one to each of the POS terminals of the batteries.  The first pic in that first link, shows a NEG bus bar. This comes in vary handy, making one connection to the battery and than work off the bus. Making for a much cleaner setup!! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WE did the foolproof way 50 ? years ago.  Used 2 simple ON  /  OFF  switches.  We all carried a very short set of jumper cables. Car type. NO way to run down both batteries. 

O K   Someone could jumper the batteries & kill both with no recharging from the engine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Iggy said:

This kit alone has its draw backs. 

ALL setups have their drawbacks. Need to list them all. 

3 hours ago, Iggy said:

Not to step on anyone's toe's, it is not quite different than what you have. Your simply, replacing the battery switch, adding a battery and two cables. Than if you want the VSR,

LOL. You dont seem to realize, HE WANTS THE VSR. So, post up each systems diagram and explain how similar they are. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Was_Wylie_Tunes said:

ALL setups have their drawbacks. Need to list them all. 

LOL. You dont seem to realize, HE WANTS THE VSR. So, post up each systems diagram and explain how similar they are. 

I think I understand what he wants, but I am not in his head The real question is, does he. Thats way he is asking questions, to learn. Your say he wants the VSR, he is saying "Blue Sea Systems 7650."  which is a kit. Both are a little different. 

Why list every single draw back and confuse the issue. That kit alone is great if you not planning to start your engine on that 2nd battery.  Thats why from the post title "Dual Battery Upgrade for a 215 SSi Cuddy" Oz modified that kit. He understood the drawbacks of that kit and worked around it to make it better. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/3/2018 at 9:51 AM, sburke91 said:

There are multiple ways to do this.  A few questions:

  • What model/year of boat?
  • How do you typically boat?  Off the trailer on weekends, in a slip or at a dock?
  • Do you have 110v electric at the place you store your boat?

Chap 210SSI '05, I trailer my boat to different lakes and its stored in my backyard. yes, I do have 110v. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, sanneti2002 said:

This is the system I want to install. My boat is a 210SSI '05 VP 5.0GX.

Another part of the questions was, do you guys think that the alternator works harder when trying to charge 2 batteries at the same time? 

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-7650-Battery/dp/B000RZNP5K/ref=sr_1_1?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1520044818&sr=1-1&keywords=blue+sea+7650

 

Not necessarily. 1 dead/depleted battery can present the load to an alternator as 2 not so dead or not deeply depleted. If you plan to drop anchor and run the house battery low and then make a short trip back to ramp/slip, id suggest relying more on a shore charger then alternator. With a single house battery and mild house loads while at anchor for occasional periods, I would not worry about a good working alternator. With the DCP/ACR system, your house bank would typically be the only battery thats low, and only after anchoring. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Was_Wylie_Tunes said:

Not necessarily. 1 dead/depleted battery can present the load to an alternator as 2 not so dead or not deeply depleted. If you plan to drop anchor and run the house battery low and then make a short trip back to ramp/slip, id suggest relying more on a shore charger then alternator. With a single house battery and mild house loads while at anchor for occasional periods, I would not worry about a good working alternator. With the DCP/ACR system, your house bank would typically be the only battery thats low, and only after anchoring. 

Thanks man, really Helpful!! now About the white box next to the battery, basically I will have to disconnect all that once I install this kit? I think I'm gonna have to uncover it and see what's inside.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, sanneti2002 said:

Thanks man, really Helpful!! now About the white box next to the battery, basically I will have to disconnect all that once I install this kit? I think I'm gonna have to uncover it and see what's inside.

You will need to take that box apart and lay it out. Than make up a wiring diagram to go by to complete the install. You will want to use tinned marine wire in the 2 to 4 gauge size depending on whats already there. Be careful to, on the lug's bolt size. I am thinking that you can reuse that box too. 

You may want to read the post called "Dual Battery Upgrade for a 215 SSi Cuddy"  from Oz. He just install, one of these kits.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do check out if the VSR relay unit will comp[etly stop charging EITHER battery if a 1 battery is very discharged.  Not a VSR you want to depend on..  A while back someone stated a VSR model DID that. Because it is designed to protect itself.  I took his statement to read a manual reset was required.  

There are no rules about how a VSR will handle a run down battery. You need to call Technical assistance for a accurate answer. I want a VSR to fully charge the strongest battery.  Then try to charge a almost dead starting battery......... This is a sequence to use if your engine requires a lot of cranking sometimes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, cyclops2 said:

Do check out if the VSR relay unit will comp[etly stop charging EITHER battery if a 1 battery is very discharged.  Not a VSR you want to depend on..  A while back someone stated a VSR model DID that. Because it is designed to protect itself.  I took his statement to read a manual reset was required.  

There are no rules about how a VSR will handle a run down battery. You need to call Technical assistance for a accurate answer. I want a VSR to fully charge the strongest battery.  Then try to charge a almost dead starting battery......... This is a sequence to use if your engine requires a lot of cranking sometimes.

Yes, that is true.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, cyclops2 said:

Do check out if the VSR relay unit will comp[etly stop charging EITHER battery if a 1 battery is very discharged.  Not a VSR you want to depend on..  A while back someone stated a VSR model DID that. Because it is designed to protect itself.  I took his statement to read a manual reset was required.  

There are no rules about how a VSR will handle a run down battery. You need to call Technical assistance for a accurate answer. I want a VSR to fully charge the strongest battery.  Then try to charge a almost dead starting battery......... This is a sequence to use if your engine requires a lot of cranking sometimes.

The Blue 7610 paired with the DCP switch has the alternator output dedicated to the main bank. The ACR opens and closed depending on the state of the house bank. The main cranking bank will always get a charge from the alternator. With an extremely low house bank, the ACR can open/close repeatedly, until the house bank comes up enough for the ACR to stay closed.

To choose which battery gets charged, one would need a 3-post distribute on demand iso/combiner. The Blue Sea 7610 is not.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Was_Wylie_Tunes said:

The Blue 7610 paired with the DCP switch has the alternator output dedicated to the main bank. The ACR opens and closed depending on the state of the house bank. The main cranking bank will always get a charge from the alternator. With an extremely low house bank, the ACR can open/close repeatedly, until the house bank comes up enough for the ACR to stay closed.

To choose which battery gets charged, one would need a 3-post distribute on demand iso/combiner. The Blue Sea 7610 is not.   

It has been my experience, that it will remain open. I have talked to Chaparral's engineer on this when I bought my boat. The Dealer could not answer all my questions on this. You need to keep an eye on the ARC's LED to see what state it is in.If it's not coming on, then you can combine them by turning the battery switch for for 5 or 10 minutes to see if it closes when un-combined. Now were taking about Blue Sea's ARC. Maybe another brand will work differently?   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Iggy said:

It has been my experience, that it will remain open. I have talked to Chaparral's engineer on this when I bought my boat. The Dealer could not answer all my questions on this. You need to keep an eye on the ARC's LED to see what state it is in.If it's not coming on, then you can combine them by turning the battery switch for for 5 or 10 minutes to see if it closes when un-combined. Now were taking about Blue Sea's ARC. Maybe another brand will work differently?   

For the sake of discussion, we call it staying open, is it does not close and stay closed. But with a volt meter, you can sometimes watch it close and open right back up, wash, rinse repeat. Alternator voltage on the A side will close the relay. But the very low battery presents a heavy load to through the relay, its voltage threshold is reached, it opens. Once it opens, voltage on A goes back up, relay closes, voltage through the relay drops, it opens. Over and over until the house bank comes up enough to not be a heavy load. Rare, but it can happen. yes, the if you know the house bank it very low, then once engine is running again, move switch to COMBINE to circumvent the relay for a period. 

No we come to the next hurdle. If we are regularly depleting the house bank to that point, we may not have enough reserve, and need to increase the house bank capacity. With a very large Ah house bank, I tend to move away from the DCP switch and ACR, and go with the traditional 1/2/BOTH switch for complete manual and mechanical control.it allows me to completely isolate a bid but dead house bank, yet U can still run my house loads once the engine is back running. I cna set that dead bank aside, and recharge is once back home. But wired correctly, my stereo, lights, frige, etc, are able to run off the main bank through the switch, when the engine is running.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, sanneti2002 said:

Chap 210SSI '05, I trailer my boat to different lakes and its stored in my backyard. yes, I do have 110v. 

question is whats really the use?  You have a stereo system that you installed, just want back up etc.  Having two batteries is never a bad thing, but in a smaller boat where the battery really isn't used when the engine is turned off maybe not worth the time, and if your worried about back up in case that battery dies, a jump box might be a quicker, cheaper way to take care of that

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, soldier4402 said:

but in a smaller boat where the battery really isn't used when the engine is turned off maybe not worth the time,

not the case for a large portion of my clientele. i have many customers whose normal trip to the lake in their trailer boats, its to drop anchor and play tunes, etc for 6-8 hours on Sat and Sun. They dont burn fuel cruising or water sports, they socialize. House banks with 200+ amp hours is not uncommon, with a dedicated main cranking in reserve. They do not want to mess with jump boxes etc. They want all day tunes and a turn-key boat when its time to go home.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Was_Wylie_Tunes said:

not the case for a large portion of my clientele. i have many customers whose normal trip to the lake in their trailer boats, its to drop anchor and play tunes, etc for 6-8 hours on Sat and Sun. They dont burn fuel cruising or water sports, they socialize. House banks with 200+ amp hours is not uncommon, with a dedicated main cranking in reserve. They do not want to mess with jump boxes etc. They want all day tunes and a turn-key boat when its time to go home.  

True.  But I was getting at a smaller boat that may park and isn't run anything, or if they are maybe a stock non powered system.  Again whats the use,  and is the concern to just have two batteries, just in case, in that event I would say jump pack.  But if you said its to park 6-8hrs and run some electric devices you would be right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No engine running ?  Or just idling?  Bigger is better

Including a HUGE alternator.  Along with huge wires to the batteries.  We have 2 boats with 150 amp taxi alternators that help reduce the battery discharge by idling faster. IF the wind is in the right direction. Or 2 anchors are used.......... Lots of ways to NOT kill the battery every long day.

Edit

If you are blasting sound?  You will not hear the higher idle speed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I added dual batteries to my 225SSI, I originally planned to mimic the factory Chap dual battery design, with a 1,2,1+2 battery switch, and a VSR in the middle.

One of the big challenges in the 225 wiring is that there's not clean separation of the house and non-house loads in the electrical system, which would have required a major rewire of the boat to get to a real 'house' design, where the house loads hit the house bank and the starting/operation loads hit the starter battery.  Looking at the photos and the OP's boat specs, I suspect his will be a similar situation.

I ended up taking the simple route (largely due to dialog on this forum)--replaced the single battery disconnect switch with a 1,2,1+2 switch, added a larger second battery, and a 2-battery onboard charger.  Both batteries are AGM's, one Group 24, one Group 27.  Size and weight are a factor on this boat though.

Usage is simple--when I hit the dock, I flip to battery 1 (the group 24) for starting and normal operation underway.  Once we get to the anchor point, I flip over to battery 2 (the gorup 27).  Depending on how long we stay on the hook, I either stay on 2 for the trip back, so it's charged by the alternator, or flip back to 1 if it's too low.  Once we get back to either the dock (have shore power), or on the trailer back home, the charger gets plugged in and both batteries get charged and maintained.  

This setup requires a little presence of mind to maintain, but is simple (nothing extra to break) and didn't require major rewiring to separate the house and operational loads.  In a perfect world, I'd do that work, have a pair of house batteries and a starting battery, with a VSR in the middle, but I think that's overkill for a 22.5' cuddy.

I've used this for the past year, with multiple overnights on the hook, and it's been flawless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, sburke91 said:

Chap dual battery design, with a 1,2,1+2 battery switch, and a VSR in the middle.

One of the big challenges in the 225 wiring is that there's not clean separation of the house and non-house loads in the electrical system, which would have required a major rewire of the boat to get to a real 'house' design

With the 1/2/BOTH switch, you dont have to separate the loads by wires, you just use the switch to draw from one bank or the other. Its honestly that simple. yes, its manual, but simple and effective and WAY better then rewiring a complex helm and electrical panel. 

Not speaking at you just wanted to frame your comments and add to it for others following.

35 minutes ago, sburke91 said:

Looking at the photos and the OP's boat specs, I suspect his will be a similar situation.

By the looks of the pic, he's got a helm BUS supply, auto bilge and stereo MEM along with the main starter cable. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, sburke91 said:

When I added dual batteries to my 225SSI, I originally planned to mimic the factory Chap dual battery design, with a 1,2,1+2 battery switch, and a VSR in the middle.

One of the big challenges in the 225 wiring is that there's not clean separation of the house and non-house loads in the electrical system, which would have required a major rewire of the boat to get to a real 'house' design, where the house loads hit the house bank and the starting/operation loads hit the starter battery.  Looking at the photos and the OP's boat specs, I suspect his will be a similar situation.

I ended up taking the simple route (largely due to dialog on this forum)--replaced the single battery disconnect switch with a 1,2,1+2 switch, added a larger second battery, and a 2-battery onboard charger.  Both batteries are AGM's, one Group 24, one Group 27.  Size and weight are a factor on this boat though.

Usage is simple--when I hit the dock, I flip to battery 1 (the group 24) for starting and normal operation underway.  Once we get to the anchor point, I flip over to battery 2 (the gorup 27).  Depending on how long we stay on the hook, I either stay on 2 for the trip back, so it's charged by the alternator, or flip back to 1 if it's too low.  Once we get back to either the dock (have shore power), or on the trailer back home, the charger gets plugged in and both batteries get charged and maintained.  

This setup requires a little presence of mind to maintain, but is simple (nothing extra to break) and didn't require major rewiring to separate the house and operational loads.  In a perfect world, I'd do that work, have a pair of house batteries and a starting battery, with a VSR in the middle, but I think that's overkill for a 22.5' cuddy.

I've used this for the past year, with multiple overnights on the hook, and it's been flawless.

To me, thats the way to do. With the Add a battery kit, you can not start your engine on ether battery as you do. So you really don't know if that 2nd battery could start you engine or not. There not giving you any warning signs. No, it not over kill for your boat. Your just ensuring that you have at least one good battery to get you home.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Was_Wylie_Tunes said:

With the 1/2/BOTH switch, you dont have to separate the loads by wires, you just use the switch to draw from one bank or the other. Its honestly that simple. yes, its manual, but simple and effective and WAY better then rewiring a complex helm and electrical panel. 

Not speaking at you just wanted to frame your comments and add to it for others following.

By the looks of the pic, he's got a helm BUS supply, auto bilge and stereo MEM along with the main starter cable. 

Exactly!  My original plan was more complex and potentially 'automatic', but ultimately the complexity was the killer.  I have to remember to flip to the 'house' battery when we arrive at the anchor point, but that's about it.

I suspect that the OP's boat has a second breaker panel under the helm that has the rest of the circuits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×