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hornre

Overheat and shutdown, now will not crank

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B4 we panic, the crank shaft still turns.

1999 Sig 240 with 5.7 litre single screw.

First day in the water was this morning. Yesterday I replaced the water pump insuring that there was an impeller inserted and that the fins were pointed the correct direction. Fired her up at the launch area and checked the thermostat area by touch and it was warm. Proceeded out onto the Columbia for 6 mile trip down the river to my slip and about 3 minutes out at about  1600 rpm noted the water temp was higher than normal.  Went another 2-3 minutes and it was up to 180.  It kept climbing so I decided to abort but I left the boat in drive and went to the bow to drop the anchor since I needed a little more room as I was in the traffic lane for the big barges.  I heard the engine running relatively smoothly and then it stopped.  I threw the anchor and took what I had.

Lots of steamish smelling vapor coming from engine compartment when I lifted the covers. I of course did not try to restart, but concentrated on making sure proper folks knew I was on the edge of the shipping lane. That accomplished (15 minutes) I did try to turn the engine over and no power was getting to the starter.  I could not hear the starter trying to turn.  I ended up getting towed in and am now at my slip.  I torqued the crankshaft with a jumbo screw driver and it turns, but still no go on the starter. Oil does not smell burnt and is not dark. All the rest of electronics are working.

I'm hoping (read praying) I had a high heat automatic shutdown of some sort but I don't know where to reset that.

Any ideas and or paths forward would be appreciated.  Thanks

Hack

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Certainly sounds like an overheat....did you get a steady alarm and then it stopped?

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Timing of the shutdown right after a pump change is where I would concentrate my efforts. Bad / wrong part ? If a key is used ? Check for it.

Check drive inlet holes for plastic bag or junk in the inlet holes.  Thermostat is stuck almost closed ?  No starter circuit  Should be a bumped off connection or a fuse.

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All I can say is good luck. I had an overheat years ago, and both exhaust heads showed cracks. Had them replaced along with some hydraulic lines and flapper valve and she's been running well ever since. Actually, better.

Just be prepared to deal with the following......Does the value you get from the boat[fun with family, etc] exceed the actual cost of repair?  If it does, repair it and don't look back.

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Pull the plugs and check the starter again? Water filled the cylinders due to reversion? Strange you could turn by hand, though...

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First of all there is no automatic high temperature shut down on our engines, as it is a violation of USCG regulation. The builder can limit power, but if your engine shut down then something serious is going on. Did you turn the engine over with your screwdriver in the normal direction of rotation, or backwards? Even if she hydro-locked as a result of water ingestion, rotating the crank rotation would still be possible in the reverse rotation as the water in the cylinder would get pushed out the open exhaust valve. Problem is the displaced water would simply sit above the exhaust valve in the manifold until the next attempt was made to rotate the crank in the normal direction of rotation with the starter.

I agree that the first step is to get the plugs out. If water is found, then crank it over several times with all the plugs out and get some CRC-656 sprayed into each cylinder to stop further damage. As an overheat was evident, it's likely you nicked a head gasket at the very least. Next step would be a water jacket pressure test with high pressure air and the easiest way to accomplish that is with an air fitting screwed into the cylinders, testing each one at a time. To get a valid test one needs to assure that both the intake and exhaust valves are closed on each subject cylinder. That can be accomplished by finding the point where the piston is at the bottom of it's power stroke just before the exhaust valve begins to open. Easy to do with a few hit or miss attempts. You will know when you have it as piston will get pushed down in the bore and crank will jump forward until it reaches the bottom of its stroke, and you will then not hear much air from either the intake of exhaust networks. If air is bleeding off into the water jacket then you have found your offending cylinder. Could be the head gasket, cracked head, or block. If you don't discover leakage there then it's time to check the manifolds and risers.

The fact that there was an overheat after an impeller change would indicate that there may be sand groves in your raw water pump housing. The old impeller had formed to the groves over time but the new one is firm, straight, and true and is simply passing over the groves causing internal slippage. These are positive displacement pumps and must be able to pump air for a time in order to prime which requires them to seal well.  Of course there is always the possibility that you had an overheat, and as a result you snapped her back to neutral in panic mode, causing reversion in the exhaust system. This sudden slow down causes a monetary vacuum to occur in the exhaust system where the engine can drown in it's own cooling water. The resulting hydro-lock may have trashed the starter on your first re-start attempt. The possibilities are almost endless, but first get the plugs out, get the starter working and crank with all of the plugs removed, and look for water. No water? Then get the water pump apart and get it working properly. If you find water, you will still need to check both the starter and water pump and hope for the best. Many engines survive a single reversion episode, and my hope is you are one of these cases. If it were mine, I would buy the simple spark plug hole adapter fitting and hook it up to an air compressor doing a quick air test on each cylinder. Good luck, and as we know it overheated figure on inspecting the inside of the 4 rubber exhaust hoses, and replacing the exhaust flappers located the the base of the transom plate Y-pipe as they are likely melted.  W

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2 hours ago, Wingnut said:

First of all there is no automatic high temperature shut down on our engines, as it is a violation of USCG regulation. The builder can limit power, but if your engine shut down then something serious is going on. Did you turn the engine over with your screwdriver in the normal direction of rotation, or backwards? Even if she hydro-locked as a result of water ingestion, rotating the crank rotation would still be possible in the reverse rotation as the water in the cylinder would get pushed out the open exhaust valve. Problem is the displaced water would simply sit above the exhaust valve in the manifold until the next attempt was made to rotate the crank in the normal direction of rotation with the starter.

I agree that the first step is to get the plugs out. If water is found, then crank it over several times with all the plugs out and get some CRC-656 sprayed into each cylinder to stop further damage. As an overheat was evident, it's likely you nicked a head gasket at the very least. Next step would be a water jacket pressure test with high pressure air and the easiest way to accomplish that is with an air fitting screwed into the cylinders, testing each one at a time. To get a valid test one needs to assure that both the intake and exhaust valves are closed on each subject cylinder. That can be accomplished by finding the point where the piston is at the bottom of it's power stroke just before the exhaust valve begins to open. Easy to do with a few hit or miss attempts. You will know when you have it as piston will get pushed down in the bore and crank will jump forward until it reaches the bottom of its stroke, and you will then not hear much air from either the intake of exhaust networks. If air is bleeding off into the water jacket then you have found your offending cylinder. Could be the head gasket, cracked head, or block. If you don't discover leakage there then it's time to check the manifolds and risers.

The fact that there was an overheat after an impeller change would indicate that there may be sand groves in your raw water pump housing. The old impeller had formed to the groves over time but the new one is firm, straight, and true and is simply passing over the groves causing internal slippage. These are positive displacement pumps and must be able to pump air for a time in order to prime which requires them to seal well.  Of course there is always the possibility that you had an overheat, and as a result you snapped her back to neutral in panic mode, causing reversion in the exhaust system. This sudden slow down causes a monetary vacuum to occur in the exhaust system where the engine can drown in it's own cooling water. The resulting hydro-lock may have trashed the starter on your first re-start attempt. The possibilities are almost endless, but first get the plugs out, get the starter working and crank with all of the plugs removed, and look for water. No water? Then get the water pump apart and get it working properly. If you find water, you will still need to check both the starter and water pump and hope for the best. Many engines survive a single reversion episode, and my hope is you are one of these cases. If it were mine, I would buy the simple spark plug hole adapter fitting and hook it up to an air compressor doing a quick air test on each cylinder. Good luck, and as we know it overheated figure on inspecting the inside of the 4 rubber exhaust hoses, and replacing the exhaust flappers located the the base of the transom plate Y-pipe as they are likely melted.  W

Thanks Wingnut.  I'll go pull the plugs today.  Any other advice appreciated.  I'll keep all of you posted so the next guy can benefit.

Randy

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2 hours ago, hornre said:

Thanks Wingnut.  I'll go pull the plugs today.  Any other advice appreciated.  I'll keep all of you posted so the next guy can benefit.

Randy

Lets go mining for water first then go from there.  W

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2 hours ago, Wingnut said:

Lets go mining for water first then go from there.  W

So I went down to the boat to start mining water and just for grins thought I would see if it would turn over.  Lo and behold it did. I thought about it for a while and said what can it hurt.  I switched the hoses around on the water pump and fired her up.  It idled in the slip for 30 minutes and never got hot.  I did not take it out as I think the impeller is shot from running dry for 10 minutes.

  I cannot tell you what a load off my mind this is.  Your analysis was going through my mind all night and I had steeled myself to expect the worst and pray for the best.  It's just money right?  So many things could go bad in life that really mean something and a boat engine is not one of them.

As a former USAF fighter pilot we are trained to learn from all incidents and accidents, thus I put this out there for what it is worth.

1) Whenever you do anything with the coolant or lubrication systems,  run it in the water on the dock for at least 10 minutes to check the system out.

2) Whenever it looks like you are going to do damage to the boat turn it off.  Barges can go around you.  It's the same in the air.  Declare an emergency and you can go anywhere you want to go.  ATC has the responsibility of getting them out of your way.  You may have some question to answer later from authorities but if you are ready to catch your boat on fire you better turn it off.

3) Don't make any big decisions until you have had a day or two to think about it and get advice. Things have a way of working their way out if you just stay positive and think.

But it does look like I have averted a bad problem, and Fathers Day is now back on!!

Thanks again Wingnut and all of you that have commented.

 

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I sure hope the water in a cylinder did not get SQUEEZED into the crankcase overnight. Check the color of the oil on the oil level stick. It should still look perfect.  If it is not

Post back and Wingnut will guide you.

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15 hours ago, hornre said:

So I went down to the boat to start mining water and just for grins thought I would see if it would turn over.  Lo and behold it did. I thought about it for a while and said what can it hurt.  I switched the hoses around on the water pump and fired her up.  It idled in the slip for 30 minutes and never got hot.  I did not take it out as I think the impeller is shot from running dry for 10 minutes.

  I cannot tell you what a load off my mind this is.  Your analysis was going through my mind all night and I had steeled myself to expect the worst and pray for the best.  It's just money right?  So many things could go bad in life that really mean something and a boat engine is not one of them.

As a former USAF fighter pilot we are trained to learn from all incidents and accidents, thus I put this out there for what it is worth.

1) Whenever you do anything with the coolant or lubrication systems,  run it in the water on the dock for at least 10 minutes to check the system out.

2) Whenever it looks like you are going to do damage to the boat turn it off.  Barges can go around you.  It's the same in the air.  Declare an emergency and you can go anywhere you want to go.  ATC has the responsibility of getting them out of your way.  You may have some question to answer later from authorities but if you are ready to catch your boat on fire you better turn it off.

3) Don't make any big decisions until you have had a day or two to think about it and get advice. Things have a way of working their way out if you just stay positive and think.

But it does look like I have averted a bad problem, and Fathers Day is now back on!!

Thanks again Wingnut and all of you that have commented.

 

Check your oil to be sure water did not leach out of the cylinder past the rings over time and end up in the oil pan. Still need to figure out why it overheated. Bad thermostat, or damaged raw water pump  housing. Hoses and exhaust flapper inspection a must do also. Be sure to pre-lubricate the new impeller upon installation. I use vegetable glycerin but silicon lube works too, without damaging the new impeller. Still no explanation as to why the starter failed to turn and when you try to compress a liquid in the combustion chamber, bad things can happen. Cracked head, bent rod, flattened rod bearing, bent crankshaft journal, and cracked piston at the wrist pin bosses are all possible in an instant. I want to join your celebration, but walk slowly here to be sure a bad issue does not turn catastrophic. Good luck.  W

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On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 2:50 PM, hornre said:

 I thought about it for a while and said what can it hurt. 

 

A Lot.   Wingnut listed most of them.  

I share in his apprehension here, as the issues you described don't usually have a way of fixing themselves.  

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