Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Wolfsong

Bravo III No Bueno!

Recommended Posts

1999 2835 SE with twin 350 mag MPI ( 383s ) with original Bravo IIIs. 

With 2 weeks to go to the annual PM service appointment one of the B3s will no longer engage in forward or reverse.  Shift cable is moving the arm on top of the motor and "appears" to move the slide that moves the cable in the outdrive.  I say "appears" as  the lower arm does move and the cable sheath does not bend or move so I take that to mean it is moving in the outdrive. 

The motor will start but has an odd "belt slipping" noise.  I ran it no more than 10 seconds after it started making the noise.  Happened after we were at idle in neutral and I kicked the gear levers to forward.  Serpentine belt is tight and none of the front pulleys are loose or stuck.  Not really a squeal but more like a chirp.

Putting the gear shift in forward allows the props to spin correctly and stops them if you try to spin them backwards.

Putting the gear shift in reverse allows the props to spin in reverse BUT it also allows them to spin in forward and that makes an audible grind or grumble noise at the top of the upper unit.

Boat has separate gear and throttle controls for each motor.

We are still scheduled for the August 6th PM service but it looks now like we will be digging further in the vault to pay for a re-man or having the upper unit re-built.

Cruddy timing AND it is the Starboard motor so it also means no power steering so no boating until it is fixed.  Grrrrrr!@

Does anyone have thoughts on the pros and cons of re-man, re-build?20621332_1965697560137597_235488732647861996_n.jpg.e278d2f8aa0bb933acb55e93b88a7ed1.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

low/no gear oil, wrong gear oil, slipping cone clutch, incorrect shift cable adjustment

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Bt Doctur said:

low/no gear oil, wrong gear oil, slipping cone clutch, incorrect shift cable adjustment

Ooopps, forgot to mention the gear oil reservoir overflowed a bit.  Still full of gear oil.  Same gear oil that has been in it for over 100 hours of operation.  No water in the gear oil reservoir.  Shift cable moves the same as the Port motor ( visual inspection only ).  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Wolfsong said:

Ooopps, forgot to mention the gear oil reservoir overflowed a bit.  Still full of gear oil.  Same gear oil that has been in it for over 100 hours of operation.  No water in the gear oil reservoir.  Shift cable moves the same as the Port motor ( visual inspection only ).  

Is there a possibility that the engine coupler spline has failed? There is a rubber isolation element that captures the female side of the spline. The other thing I would try is removing the engine end of the rear shift cable and pull on the cable to see if it is still connected to the shifter fork. Speaking of the fork, not a good idea to shift a Bravo without the engine running as it can bend the fork. Good luck, and if you find a trashed cone clutch, gear set or failed bearing be sure to go through the entire drive as the metal bits will get to everything. Too many are tempted to just replace the upper gear case and the remainder of the drive soon suffers from the embedded filings. If you need a Bravo service manual, I'll send you one if you write me a PM with a valid e-mail address.    Good Luck.  W

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wingnut.  Will check the lower cable play and pm you for the b3 manual

  Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please post your findings and fix.  I have the same boat but with no issues yet. 

Goodluck. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More than likely the cone clutch is worn out which means you'll nee a new upper gear set. Check the engine coupler as well as they usually go around the same time. I just replaced all of these items on my 99 Baja.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for all of the replies.  6 days until she is hauled out for inspection.  Will post an update as soon as we have information.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So we finally have a diagnosis.  The engine coupler spline has failed.  Twenty four hundred deer to remove drive, remove motor, replace engine coupler spline  and re-assemble.  Does not include oil change in motor or out drive gear oil change.  Does that seem out of line?  I saw many posts from 2010 to 2012 on other forums referencing prices from 15 hundred to 19 hundred deer.   We are  going to have the gimbal bearing, bellows, etc checked and replaces as needed and will have the other drive checked as well.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Wolfsong said:

So we finally have a diagnosis.  The engine coupler spline has failed.  Twenty four hundred deer to remove drive, remove motor, replace engine coupler spline  and re-assemble.  Does not include oil change in motor or out drive gear oil change.  Does that seem out of line?  I saw many posts from 2010 to 2012 on other forums referencing prices from 15 hundred to 19 hundred deer.   We are  going to have the gimbal bearing, bellows, etc checked and replaces as needed and will have the other drive checked as well.   

Insist that the replacement coupler is the stainless steel upgrade used on both the 8.1's and small block work boats. Also, I would suggest that you go through the starter and inspect manifolds and risers while engine is out.  W

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After 2.5 MONTHS we finally have Purple Daze back.  So many missed opportunities for communication made this a very challenging service for us.  We ended up doing a lot of "while the engine is out" work including a whole new 4 battery system, oil lines on both engines, starter, replaced the transom thru hull gaskets, bellows, gimbal bearings, new fuel sender,  trim tab actuators and a few more little items.  Also did the engine and outdrive full service including anodes.   One huge herd of deer.  We did follow wingnut's advice for the big block version of replacement torque coupler. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sooooo.  First cruise after the coupler replacement and we have a new and terrible sounding "shudder and shake" when turning to starboard.   Starboard motor was the one with the failed coupler.  No issues when turning to port.  When the shudder begins the starboard motor will loose RPMs.  Sometimes 4-500 rpms compared to the port motor.  Does not happen everytime but enough to know something is not right.  Happened once while heading straight.  Throttling all the way down will slow then stop the shudder.  Throttle back up and if straight then generally OK.  If in a starboard turn then most of the time the shudder will re-appear.  Called the shop and have a ride along scheduled for tomorrow.  The freakin' fun never ends.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some boats utilize only one Power Steering pump. How is your set up and if a single is it located on the Starboard engine? The pump could be failing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Phillbo,

Pretty sure we only have power steering pump on the starboard motor.  It was a real bear to steer on the drive down to haul her out for service.  My repair guy also went to power steering as a first diagnosis but I question how the shudder would happen while driving straight and if it is the power steering how does that cause the RPMs to drop on that motor?  Not just an imbalance of a few RPMs but 400 to 500. 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1f73DSlfuB8ZyDqJydpHVmXQMOPqiVOxN
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Wolfsong said:

Sooooo.  First cruise after the coupler replacement and we have a new and terrible sounding "shudder and shake" when turning to starboard.   Starboard motor was the one with the failed coupler.  No issues when turning to port.  When the shudder begins the starboard motor will loose RPMs.  Sometimes 4-500 rpms compared to the port motor.  Does not happen everytime but enough to know something is not right.  Happened once while heading straight.  Throttling all the way down will slow then stop the shudder.  Throttle back up and if straight then generally OK.  If in a starboard turn then most of the time the shudder will re-appear.  Called the shop and have a ride along scheduled for tomorrow.  The freakin' fun never ends.

It almost sounds like there's some ignition-related drop in voltage caused by either the power steering pump or something else that happened as they reassembled the starboard engine.  This is one of those tough diagnosis but I bet it'll be an easy fix.  Frustrating for sure, but doesn't sound major and I'm sure the shop will get to the bottom of it. 

Keep us posted, please. 

On ‎7‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 10:04 PM, Jjlai724 said:

Please post your findings and fix.  I have the same boat but with no issues yet. 

Goodluck. 

She's a beauty.  I've always loved the way those sit in the water with the stern further down like gofasts.  You can even tell just by looking at Woolfsong's pic in the first post and the bottom paint line.  Clearly much more angled than say mine or the more standard hulls. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

New diagnosis.  After two trips out to our private dock by the shops crew we have a diagnosis.  It seems that the throttle position sensor on the starboard motor has failed or is failing.  Voltage drops on it in comparison to the port motor when under load and when the keys are in "on" but the motors are not turning.  That seems to explain the RPM drop and possibly the shuddering as the two motors/drives are not balanced when the RPMs are off between motors/drives.

The shop is taking care of diagnostic labor.  We are going to do the TPS in both motors and they are only charging for one.  We should have smooth sailing soon!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Phillbo,

It took 9+ weeks of terrible communication and no less than three unannounced B.O.A.T. invoice increases but we finally have a good line of communication with the service writer and the techs.  Our initial diagnosis and estimate was for 2.5 large herds of deer.  The last invoice ended up at 8.7 large herds.  We had zero heads up from 2.5 to an interim 6.8, then on to 7.6 and then to 8.7.  So after that I finally got a call from the CEO and we hashed things out.  I would never say they "owed" us for the diagnostics but after the previous issues, I am just glad they stepped up,

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hatem,

 

Thanks.  I tried to upload another photo of her in the water but seem to be getting a constant error message.  She does have a bit more of a rearward "rake" than most cuddy boats.  With twin 383s she is not quite a go fast boat but she will hit 54 with 3 on board and a 1/2 tank of gas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/17/2018 at 1:54 PM, Wolfsong said:

New diagnosis.  After two trips out to our private dock by the shops crew we have a diagnosis.  It seems that the throttle position sensor on the starboard motor has failed or is failing.  Voltage drops on it in comparison to the port motor when under load and when the keys are in "on" but the motors are not turning.  That seems to explain the RPM drop and possibly the shuddering as the two motors/drives are not balanced when the RPMs are off between motors/drives.

It makes sense that the drop in RPMs was voltage-related from a failing throttle position sensor and it makes sense that drop would caused the subsequent imbalance and shuddering, but didn't you say you experienced the shuddering first, then the drop in RPMs?

And what do you mean "when the keys are in on"?  Do you get the drop in RPMs with just the engines on and in neutral also?  Is it a DTC?  I'm just curious, btw. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Update:  Throttle position sensor was not the issue.  Brand new one installed last Friday and the issue persists.   Guys are due today to re-diagnose.    Now over 10 weeks and counting.

 

Hatem:  The "keys are in on" means the ignition key is set to "on" but the motors are not cranked.  They basically tested the Throttle Position Sensor by having me move the throttle from ilel to full and compared the 2 motors.  Port motor went straight to full voltage and stayed there as long as the throttle was at full.  Starboard motor took "a few seconds" to hit full voltage and then did not stay at full voltage even though the throttle remained at full. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×