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Time for Oil Change

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I'm ready to change the oil in my boat.  I own a 2008 Sunsetta 224with Volvo Penta 5.7 GXI - J .  I'm wondering what kind and type of oil to use.  

 

Any suggestions ? 

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For your model and year, your choice of mineral or synthetic provided mineral has only been run. If any synthetic along the way, then only synthetic now. Straight 30W or 10W-30 or higher. At least API SM. (The original fill was mineral, and was required for the first of 150 hours or 3 years). Please check your manual to confirm the above information. The specification is listed and should be what’s typed (the specification for later years has changed and is different). Change the filter as well. Suggest doing both annually regardless of which type is used. Mobil 1, Castrol and Volvo branded oils are all very good.

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13 hours ago, Curt said:

For your model and year, your choice of mineral or synthetic provided mineral has only been run. If any synthetic along the way, then only synthetic now.

This is pretty important and some people don't know about this and some who do will downplay it.  AND, in the case of the OP, it doesn't sound like he knows what the original oil was that's in the boat so he might not have any choice but to do with the synthetic, given the scenario.

14 hours ago, Thumb520 said:

I'm ready to change the oil in my boat.  I own a 2008 Sunsetta 224with Volvo Penta 5.7 GXI - J .  I'm wondering what kind and type of oil to use.  

 

Any suggestions ? 

Unless you know exactly what oil was put in before (or what it currently has), then I would go with a synthetic motor oil because of that principle.  If you have mineral oil in the engine, then you can put mineral oil in again.  But one you have put synthetic oil in the engine, you should NOT go back to mineral oil and since you're asking what oil to put use, I can only assume you don't know what's already in there, so go with a synthetic just to be safe.  Besides, I think most would agree that synthetic oil is simply better anyway.  And I would stick with VP products because of the OEM concept.  I always abide by that as much as possible but that's just me.

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11 minutes ago, Hatem said:

But once you have put synthetic oil in the engine, you should NOT go back to mineral oil

Why is that?

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Use Mobil 1 15w-50 in the thing and enjoy your ride. Volvo OEM oil in Europe was a simple re-brand of Mobil-1 for years, and was packaged in a "Volvo" bottle at our facility in Gravashon France. Mobil missed the contract in the US, and was under bid by a small compounder. Volvo suffered roller lifter failures as a result of their 30w Synthetic, and have since changed suppliers. Mobil 1 15w-50 is available at Walmart in 5 quart containers on the cheap. Keep in mind, Merc and Volvo do not formulate their own oils, and when they go shopping they look for a compounder that can match their performance criteria, without breaking the bank. IMHO, as owners we can always do better and in your case the alternative to over-priced Volvo oil is a simple one. Mobil 1 15w-50.  If you would like the specifics I can provide the documentation from my boys at Mobil Research and Development.   W

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1 hour ago, Waterfun said:

Why is that?

Why do I get the feeling this is more of a setup than a genuinely curious question?  Lol.  Maybe it's as myth and there's no truth to conventional mineral oils expanding the seals and once you introduce synthetic oil, the seals shrink back reducing wear, creating less deposits and crud, essentially cleansing the engine and so why would you want to reverse that process?  The switch to synthetic from mineral is only beneficial, whereas the other way around is the opposite.  I believe there's quite a bit of truth to that. 

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34 minutes ago, Hatem said:

Why do I get the feeling this is more of a setup than a genuinely curious question?  Lol.  Maybe it's as myth and there's no truth to conventional mineral oils expanding the seals and once you introduce synthetic oil, the seals shrink back reducing wear, creating less deposits and crud, essentially cleansing the engine and so why would you want to reverse that process?  The switch to synthetic from mineral is only beneficial, whereas the other way around is the opposite.  I believe there's quite a bit of truth to that. 

who knows you got people who change their oil at every 3k miles still.  Look at a boats even people change it every year, when even factoring in hours use and running at higher rpms, the equivalent to mileage on a car is probably pretty low.  Very uneducated but doubtful oil in most boats really needs to be changed every year, but yet some acid will form and melt blocks away. 

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6 hours ago, Hatem said:
7 hours ago, Waterfun said:

 

Why do I get the feeling this is more of a setup than a genuinely curious question?

Not a set up. Just curious as to why you shouldn't go back. I took Wingnuts advise and run Mobil

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If you can not go back ??   Lawsuits down the line if damage really occurs.

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I read up on the Valvoline oil site  about the good & not so goods of both types of oil. No mention of a danger about switching either way.

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11 hours ago, Wingnut said:

Use Mobil 1 15w-50 in the thing and enjoy your ride. Volvo OEM oil in Europe was a simple re-brand of Mobil-1 for years, and was packaged in a "Volvo" bottle at our facility in Gravashon France. Mobil missed the contract in the US, and was under bid by a small compounder. Volvo suffered roller lifter failures as a result of their 30w Synthetic, and have since changed suppliers. Mobil 1 15w-50 is available at Walmart in 5 quart containers on the cheap. Keep in mind, Merc and Volvo do not formulate their own oils, and when they go shopping they look for a compounder that can match their performance criteria, without breaking the bank. IMHO, as owners we can always do better and in your case the alternative to over-priced Volvo oil is a simple one. Mobil 1 15w-50.  If you would like the specifics I can provide the documentation from my boys at Mobil Research and Development.   W

Yep!! Or even the 10W-40. I paid 22.50 for a 5 qt jug from Walmart and free shipping...........

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9 hours ago, Hatem said:

Why do I get the feeling this is more of a setup than a genuinely curious question?  Lol.  Maybe it's as myth and there's no truth to conventional mineral oils expanding the seals and once you introduce synthetic oil, the seals shrink back reducing wear, creating less deposits and crud, essentially cleansing the engine and so why would you want to reverse that process?  The switch to synthetic from mineral is only beneficial, whereas the other way around is the opposite.  I believe there's quite a bit of truth to that. 

I find that hard to believe............ From Mobil and other sites basically state the same thing.   https://mobiloil.com/en/faq/ask-our-auto-experts/questions-for-auto-experts/what-will-happen-switching-from-synthetic-motor-oil-to-conventional-oil

But why use conventional oil anyways. 

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Good enough for normal driving ?  Save the difference for Gin & Tonics ?:clapsmiley:

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For some reason I seem to think the USA ...REQUIRES all oils & gasolines to be a certain recipe so machines WILL NOT BE DAMAGED.

Imagine the dead boats planes & cars all over the place.

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10 hours ago, cyclops2 said:

For some reason I seem to think the USA ...REQUIRES all oils & gasolines to be a certain recipe so machines WILL NOT BE DAMAGED.

Imagine the dead boats planes & cars all over the place.

possible, either way not a buyer of theory of used oil in a block is going to magically make the block fall apart, never seen it happen and doubtful anybody has any data to back it up.

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14 hours ago, Waterfun said:

Not a set up. Just curious as to why you shouldn't go back. 

Why would you?

19 hours ago, BajaDriver said:

Royal Purple or amsoil. Hot subject to discuss, but id go with full syn. 

I've used Royal Purple on my WS6-TA since I bought it new in 2001.  :) Still have it and I've only put 36K on it LOL. 

11 hours ago, Iggy said:

I find that hard to believe............ From Mobil and other sites basically state the same thing.   https://mobiloil.com/en/faq/ask-our-auto-experts/questions-for-auto-experts/what-will-happen-switching-from-synthetic-motor-oil-to-conventional-oil 

But why use conventional oil anyways. 

From your own link: Synthetic oils typically provide better protection than conventional oils, but switching back and forth between full synthetic and conventional oil will not damage the engine. Of course, this depends on the current engine condition and the quality of the conventional oil being used.

I mean, what else do you people need to convince you it's not a good idea to switch that way?!?!  lol

Listen, you guys want to debate the merits of the effects of switching conventional to synthetic vs synthetic to conventional, that's fine.  You want to switch to conventional oil after having used synthetic oil....BE MY GUEST!  :haha-7383:

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21 hours ago, soldier4402 said:

who knows you got people who change their oil at every 3k miles still.  Look at a boats even people change it every year, when even factoring in hours use and running at higher rpms, the equivalent to mileage on a car is probably pretty low.  Very uneducated but doubtful oil in most boats really needs to be changed every year, but yet some acid will form and melt blocks away. 

Don't you know that we MUST turn a mole into a mountain around here? lol.  If you don't change the oil before you put it away for the winter, you will regret it as it turns into ACIDEMONOIL........who will proceed to possess your engine from within.....Buuuuhaahahahahahaaaaaaa!

qvoYHfU.jpg

Your engine's life will be oooovvvveeerrrrr and your boat will be possessed by Acidemonoil foreeeever as he begins to consume your engine block with his evilness and melt it away!! 

The only way to cast the evil Aciddemonoil out of your engine block is to summon the Vatican garage mechanics and fly them over from Italy to perform an acid cleansing exorcism of your entire boat!  Since Acidemonoil doesn't only possess and consume the engine, he flows through the bilge and into your boat's soul and also possesses the power steering fluid all the way to the steering wheel and eventually into you. 

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1 hour ago, Hatem said:

Why would you?

I've used Royal Purple on my WS6-TA since I bought it new in 2001.  :) Still have it and I've only put 36K on it LOL. 

From your own link: Synthetic oils typically provide better protection than conventional oils, but switching back and forth between full synthetic and conventional oil will not damage the engine. Of course, this depends on the current engine condition and the quality of the conventional oil being used.

I mean, what else do you people need to convince you it's not a good idea to switch that way?!?!  lol

Listen, you guys want to debate the merits of the effects of switching conventional to synthetic vs synthetic to conventional, that's fine.  You want to switch to conventional oil after having used synthetic oil....BE MY GUEST!  :haha-7383:

Your missing the point here. You stated that the seals shrink and expand going back and forth, between the two types of oil. If that were to happen, we would have oil and coolant leaks.

Now they might expand with, say with the block and head as one. When the engines heats up.That i am not to sure of, but if that seal/gasket moves. We are in trouble.

That link is just showing that going back and forth "will not hurt the engine".

Of course synthetic is better. I stated in my last post, why use conventional oil anyways.

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Synthetics have been an evolution. High mileage engines with conventional gasketing were fine, and would seep as they got older. Because the oil quality was just not to today's standards, sludge would build which increased wear, shortened engine life, and yes, helped with sealing. Synthetics have many great qualities, and one thing that was discovered early on was their inherent solvent capability. Put a PAO ester synthetic into a "seasoned" conventional engine and a little leak becomes a big one. In my mind, that era has past as today's mineral oils are up to the task, and switching back and forth and mixing has no negative impact other that you loose the benefits of the synthetic. The so called blends was an attempt by the majors to compete to a price point, offer a slight up-grade to conventional oils, and find an outlet for their UCP. (unsaleable commingled product). W

RECREATIONAL MARINE OILS...

 

I've followed the oil controversy for some time, and read the comments with interest, but it seems that most opinions are simple statements without any technical reference. I'm not a subject matter expert by any means, but have worked with some of the top Lube Chemists and Application Engineers in the business, and hopefully will be able to remove some of the apparent mystery surrounding "Marine Spec" oils.

First of all let's identify the fundamental differences between an automotive engine and a recreational marine application. Cars typically use a moderate percentage of their available horsepower to achieve cruising speed, then a much lower percentage to maintain said speed. A marine engine as we know is constantly loaded like a truck climbing a mountain and never reaching the top. As such, the marine engine combustion chamber temperatures are, on average, significantly higher than a comparably sized automotive engine. This alone creates a need for an extreme pressure component to be deposited on the cylinder walls to prevent compression ring and piston skirt scuffing. Marine engines are also jetted fatter on their fuel curve, and use a much colder spark plug. Control of ignition timing is also much more critical. The good news is that there is an inexhaustible supply of cooling water available to help with other related excess heat issues.

Secondly, engine oils have a propensity to attract moisture. With the boat sitting at the marina for weeks on end, marine oil will typically have an emulsifier added to help keep the oil in suspension until the next engine heat cycle drives out the moisture. If "moist" used oil is left in the crankcase say over the winter, it is not uncommon for acids to form which attack the lead/iridium coating on the engine main and rod bearings, leading to failure during the first cold start of the next season.

Let's set these two issues aside for now, and discuss the primary mission of motor oils. Most people think lubrication, and although lubricity is important, the primary purpose is to remove heat. To accomplish this, the oil must be in the right place at the right time and stay there until its mission is accomplished. Different oils achieve this utilizing different approaches.

Mineral based oils as pulled from the ground and refined have a multitude of different sized molecules. Quite simply, the medium sized ones do a pretty good job right out of the box. The big ones hang in there on a 90 degree plus day, but start to turn to tar as temperatures grow cold. As stated before, oil does no good if it's not where it's needed when it's needed. Cold start-up can be a problem with straight weight conventional oils for the first few seconds. To help with this, blenders add a pour depressant additive to the mix which tends to free up these big fat molecules as the temperatures fall.

The small molecules do not have a low pour point issue and will flow quite well at colder temperatures; however they have a nasty habit of vaporizing out the exhaust when temperatures climb. Another additive known as a viscosity improver attaches to these guys, and helps them to thicken as the temperature goes up. This is how 20W-50 oil can act as a 20 weight in winter and a 50 weight as temperatures elevate.

Lastly, in an extreme pressure application such as the cylinder wall to piston skirt scuffing phenomena common to marine engines, a blender will utilize an extreme pressure additive to negate this exposure. These materials, typically heavy metals, will deposit themselves into the tiny scratches in the cylinders and pistons providing a barrier of dry lubricant which stays in place until the carrier oil has an opportunity to deposit a new batch during the next splash cycle. These compounds can be moly-lithium-disulfide, zinc, graphite, lead, iso-sulfinates, and iso-calsinates (sulfur or calcium).

Marine oils and specifically the Merc oil blend that many of you defend so strongly achieves the required marine certifications in several ways. An anti-corrosion additive keeps the excess moisture at bay, while the viscosity enhancer and pour depressant make their base oil stable over a broader operating range.

Sounds like we have it all covered, but there are a few negative qualities to these additives. The heavy metals need to be use in precise quantities and need to stay in suspension in order to be effective. Too little in the mix due to poor quality control, or additive fall-out in the oil pan, and the skirts are going to get scratched. Too much, and this stuff ends up in the combustion chamber as tiny little blobs of glitter that glow at superheated temperatures causing pre-ignition like you would not believe.

The pour depressants, viscosity improvers, and moisture dispersants seem harmless enough, but they all have one thing in common. They decrease the carrier oil's base line lubricity. That's not a good thing.

I think the Merc oil is fine and if that is what makes you happy keep using it. But I think we can do better under certain circumstances. Engine builders are notorious for being slow to accept changing lubrication technology. They want oil that they can get in limited quantity in their bottle at a cheap price. It needs to get them through their warranty period, but not necessarily make their engine last forever. It's only when their customers insist on a better mouse trap are they forced to provide one. A case in point is Honda factory approved 5w-20 premium motor oil. Available at their dealer network, this stuff is actually Mobil Clean 5000. That’s the bottom of the food chain at Mobil. Will it go 5,000 miles in your new Acura and get you to the end of the warranty period. You bet. Can you do better for your new ride? You bet.

So what about Synthetics? Remember the molecule size discussion earlier? Mobil-1 is made from PAO ester base oil manufactured by Mobil Chemical. They take a base fluid and through catalyst technology are able to re-arrange things at the molecular level ending up with a base oil with nothing but the medium sized molecules we are looking for, which is stable over the complete operating temperature range. Straight out of the tank, it can out perform the best conventional oils, without the need for additives. Mobil has developed special additive packages to enhance these formulations even further to the point where these oils can do things never thought possible.

I've used these oils in our fleet of recreational boaters since they came out. High Performance and Heavy Cruisers alike, I've seen overheating due to raw water pump failure where the exhaust bellows have burned off, and the head gaskets have failed, but the cylinder walls, valve guides, and main and rod bearings were undamaged. I have actually seen a piston from Kyle Petty's NASCAR engine that drove back to the pits in Daytona after an accident, without water in the block. The top of the piston was melted, but the cylinder wall was unharmed.

Why Mobil-1 is not marine certified? Well because it's a small volume sale that requires an upfront expenditure. Also, I would not let dirty Mobil-1 sit in my engine during winter lay-up as it is not loaded up with moisture dispersant. What about viscosity enhancers, pour depressants, and extreme pressure additives? Doesn't need them and as stated before they tend to reduce lubricity. Ain't broke, don't fix it. In Europe, the Volvo Penta full synthetic was a simple re-brand of Mobil 1 15w-50 as packaged in their bottle at our lube blending facility in Gravashon France.

I see mileage and WOT increases in every case after switching to 15W-50 Mobil-1 in recreational marine applications. I drop it at 100 hours or at season's end. Fill her with fresh and wait for summer. Your choice, but I hope this helps with the decision making process.

 

 

SYNTHETIC OILS...

 

I had posted comments relative to recreational marine oils, and have had several inquires asking if this or that oil is a good choice. My answer is "your guess is as good as mine". I use Mobil-1 for the reasons I stated. I would however like to attempt to clarify the term "Synthetic" as applied to today's oils as marketed.

 

PAO esters were developed to replace mineral base oils which have been in use since the introduction of the internal combustion engine. Mineral oil's suitability for blending into lubricating oil base stocks depends on the crude source and refining process utilized. Keytone solvent base refining and clay filtration was utilized to remove the wax and other impurities from crude lube extracts for years, with the wax being sold as a consumer product. Nowadays, a hydrogen based process or hydro-treating is combined with different catalysts to produce a mineral base oil of high quality. A rating system was developed using a term known as "base number" whereas the higher number the better. These high base number blending stocks require fewer additives in order to produce a suitable consumer end product.

 

PAO esters are still today, the holy grail of base stocks as they out perform any mineral oil based compound by a long shot. Because these PAO fluids are proprietary, are extremely expensive to produce and are backed up with limited production capability, the remainder of the industry was scrambling back in the early 1990's for a cheaper alternative in order to enter the lucrative synthetic market. Enter the "severely hydro-treated" mineral base oils.

 

Refiners began to market these high base number mineral oils as "Synthetic" The PAO contingent sued as they felt that identifying these severely hydro treated base oils as a pure synthetic was out right fraud. As there were no government standards at that time for synthetic oils, the courts claimed that no one could actually claim what constituted a synthetic, and what was not. I feel that this was a true disservice to the consumer, as now the market is flooded with "synthetic oils" and we as consumers do not know which are true PAO esters and which are high base number want-a-bee's.

 

My feeling is this. Unless you have documented performance records over a long period of time for yours or a similar application, don't experiment. The trouble is that when we arrive at the parts store, all the bottles look alike. For example, I will always use Mobil-1 15w-50 in my 496 Mag-HO as I truly feel that it's the best I can get, and much better than it actually has to be. On the other hand, I would not put Quaker State , Royal Purple, or several others in my lawn mower due to my own personal experience. If you are not experienced, stick with the Merc oil or the Volvo oil. If you are set on an alternative, compare it's specification to the Mobil-1 data below. If your supplier refuses to provide the data, keep looking.

 

Mobil-1 15w-50…

API Certifications  SF,SG,SH,CD

General Motors   6048-M, 6049-M, 6085-M,

Ford                     M2C153E

Total Base Number   12

Sulfated Ash              1.3

HT/HS, cP @150 C

Low Temp Viscosity              3500 @ -15   (Cranking cP)

                                                30,000@-20   (Pumping cP)

High Temperature Viscosity   5.6 cSt at 100C

API Gravity  30.2

Pour Point   -55 F

Flash Point  470 F

SUS @ 100 F   556

SUS @ 210 F   90

V.I.   170 

 

 Lastly, I see some of you are using truck fleet type oils like Rotella-T and Mobil Delvac. Remember that these are diesel fleet oils which are a little high on zinc additives. Diesels love Zinc. Gasoline engines do not. A high speed marine engine will get some of these heavy metal particles into the combustion chambers, which are excessively hot in a boat application. This can cause pre-ignition in a gasoline application. Remember that this effect is how a diesel engine operates, and is also how a gas engine can beat itself to pieces.    

 

 

OUT DRIVE OIL...

 

I was asked to take a minute to comment on oil usage in both the Alpha's and Bravo drives as it seems to be a topic that surfaces on the forum almost weekly. My contentions based on 30 years in the Lubes business and over 40 years in boating are as follows.

            First of all, I feel that any actual consumption of oil by a drive system indicates a leak. If the drive shaft bellows accumulates gear oil, the input shaft seal is leaking and needs to be changed along with a careful inspection of the top bevel gear bearing set. If the owner is very aggressive about greasing the gimbal bearing, then it would be normal to see a small amount of carrier oil separation from the grease accumulate in the bellows, but it would not be the same color as the gear oil.

            Secondly, the remaining three drive seals are all below the water line during operation and a leak would be evident by an oil sheen in the water both during operation and at rest. For obvious reasons, these also need to be fixed in a hurry due to pollution issues and also their ability to draw water into the drive housing during cool down. Other than that, there are a few gaskets and an o-ring which I have never seen fail unless they were installed improperly.

            This leads us to the question of "why does my drive use oil, and where does it go?" Based on my experience I suggest the following.

            Gear oil is a complex hydrocarbon matrix comprised of large chain molecules which are subject to a phenomena known as shear. Think of a gallon bucket full of tennis balls. You can only get so many balls in the bucket due to the amount of air that is surrounding each ball. Under heavy loads like water sports as you suggested, some of these molecules break down into smaller pieces due to shear. Now the bucked seems to be only 7/8 full as the tennis balls are now smaller in size, but there are more in number and if we were to weigh the bucket we would find that it weighs the same as before. We did not loose any balls, that just take up less space then they did before. The same thing happens with gear oil. As the molecules shear, they take up less space and it appears that there has been an external loss of oil. Actually it is still there, just degraded in quality somewhat. After 50 to 100 hours of this abuse, it begins to loose its effectiveness and is in need of a change out.

            Gear oils have a very high density, and a fairy low gravity. Drop a golf ball in a bucket of gear oil and it take a while to reach the bottom. Drop the same ball in Gasoline and it sinks quickly. Now weigh each bucket and you will find that the gasoline is much heavier then the gear oil. Gasoline has a higher gravity, but lower density. That’s because its individual molecules are very small with little space for air between them. The same volume of gear oil has a lesser mass as the complex chain molecules are large by comparison and have a great deal of air between them. Beat those big molecules into little ones in a high speed, non-hypoid gear case such as an out drive, and pretty soon the same amount of oil takes up less space, and needs a top off. Nothing actually leaked out, the balls just got smaller.

            Lastly I'd like to suggest a variation in the method in which you and others change your drive oil. I keep reading about the air that gets trapped during refill and the subsequent need for topping off, and also about drive oil reservoir level alarms after servicing, and I can tell you I have a quick and easy solution. DON'T REMOVE THE TOP VENT PLUG. When draining the drive, remove the cap from the remote reservoir, and remove the bottom drain plug. It's important to drain the reservoir anyway as sediment accumulate in the bottom of the bottle due to thermal capillary circulation during normal operation. Get this old oil out with the rest of the drive oil as it is just as old and just as worn out. Attach your filler to the bottom drain as normal, and pump up the drive until oil appears in the remote reservoir. Look Mom, no air. The oil tube that runs up to the plastic bottle on the Gen II's exits the drive higher then the top vent plug, thus displacing the mystery air bubble. Using this methodology, I have never had to top off a drive after servicing. If you beat up an Alpha, expect to add a little oil due to shear, but if you are doing that often and there is no external leakage, the drive oil is shot and you need to think about changing it more often anyway. I use a pressure tank to fill my Bravo III-X as it take over three quarts. I change it ever 50 hours, and have never had to top a drive off because I don't give the oil a chance to begin to shear and I don't start out with an air bubble in the first place. Keep the top plug in and watch out for shear loss and I think your drive will be around for another decade or so. I hate to hear our forum members talking about top off on drives without level alarms. If you have to add a half a quart to a Bravo, or even less to an Alpha, then the top bevel gear set and bearings in the upper gear case are already taking a big hit. Hope this helps. If you ever have any oil questions, I know who to call for answers as I still keep in touch with the boys at ExxonMobil.

 

 

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You know I was just about to post the same thing!

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