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TexasPilot71

Engine noise - “popping” or “missing”

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On 10/29/2018 at 9:53 AM, TexasPilot71 said:

Good advice!  Thanks!

And it is..............

I do change my caps and rotors every 2 years. My first boat, one year it was running rough, popping, miss firing. Bad cap from all the moisture it was expose too. 

 

 

 

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Desperate parts companies.  This is a VERY VERY OLD PROBLEM that will not be corrected...…………. Buy any other companies pump with similar specifications...……….. Or pull the new pump apart & remove the paint. Then reassemble. 

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5 hours ago, Mi3sons said:

And who the heck paints the inside of a fuel pump???

I know, RIGHT?!  Such a bonehead move by Merc, but major props for stepping up.  I'm going to get new injectors!!!!!

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Parts are in the mail!  This is unbelievable customer service.  They are sending new fuel module (includes pumps, regulator, filter...everything), 8 new injectors, and a new fuel line kit.  The marina is telling me they confirmed the paint was delaminating under the filter housing cap which is exactly what Mercury was expecting us to find.  Fingers crossed, but by next weekend, this looks like it will be solved!

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Volvo has had this fuel pump paint issue too....and they did not replace my pump $$$$

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16 minutes ago, RoyR said:

Volvo has had this fuel pump paint issue too....and they did not replace my pump $$$$

That's too bad.  I'm a little jell-o in the knees right now.  I just received the labor estimate from the marina.  12 hours to replace the injectors, 6 hours to replace the fuel line, 6 hours to replace the cool fuel module, and 5 hours to replace the hose fitting assembly.  Plus 2 hours for spark plug replacement and 4.5 hours of diagnostics.

I am stunned. 

I might hate boats now.

How much are kidneys going for these days?

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They are billing 35 hours .At what rate?  I would not let them clean my windshield.  Ask for the owner  The paint problem has been known for 100 years ?  New marina  is my call.

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11 hours ago, TexasPilot71 said:

That's too bad.  I'm a little jell-o in the knees right now.  I just received the labor estimate from the marina.  12 hours to replace the injectors, 6 hours to replace the fuel line, 6 hours to replace the cool fuel module, and 5 hours to replace the hose fitting assembly.  Plus 2 hours for spark plug replacement and 4.5 hours of diagnostics.

I am stunned. 

I might hate boats now.

How much are kidneys going for these days?

Did they forget to put decimal points in there? That is about a 6-8 hour job, TOTAL. They must have done the estimate wrong.

12 hours to replace injectors?????  6 hours for fuel line????? Are they high?

I would get back on the hook with Merc and question that estimate, or get another one.

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That is absolutely ridiculous! Do they wear masks while they are robbing you? 4.5 hours also for diagnosis? While it's a known issue with the fuel pumps. Pay your bill and get out of there. Find a known good marine repair service. At least maybe try Plano marine, I heard they are good.

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4 hours ago, Pops said:

12 hours to replace injectors?????  6 hours for fuel line????? Are they high?

lol.  I thought those numbers were a little nuts, especially that one.  If I'm not mistaken, on that 350 MAG even though it is a bit of work to get to the injectors because you basically have to disconnect everything on top of the engine that is in the way of removing the intake manifold to get to the injector manifold itself.  Then it's pretty simple to pop out all 8 injectors and wires, put the new ones in and connect the wire ends to the correct injection ports on the cylinders.  Then you also have to put all that crap back together which is a bit of a pain in the asss. 

They probably bill it as a 1 day job because of how tight the area is to work on in that boat and engine, so if they said 8 hours, that actually would be fair,  But 12 is a bit excessive.

And if I'm also not mistaken on this, the fuel line has to be removed to get to the injector manifold so that can be changed within that process.  Not sure why they need an extra 6 hours to change the fuel line LOL! 

Then 5 hours to replace the hose fittings?  Something isn't right.

If they're charging 2 hours for spark plug replacements which literally should be only 1 hour max, if that, then it sounds like they're tacking on close to double the time for labor.  The spark plugs are obviously a pain in the asss to get to with the exhaust manifolds in the way, but these guys should be used to that.  It took me a little less than an hour to change mine (including the time to check gapping which isn't much) and I don't do this every day like they do.

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On 2/1/2019 at 6:32 PM, TexasPilot71 said:

"Semi" Update:

I've run a full tank through the motor, and I'm about half way through another tank.  Still no improvement.  Called Mercruiser just an hour or so ago.  Michelle was awesome!  I explained the issue and she asked me about the fuel filter in the cool fuel module.  She asked if it was black.  I explained that there was quite a bit of black on it (see photo).  She explained that the Gen III cool fuel module had a known problem.  It's been discussed on several boating sites, and I remember reading about this...but essentially, they painted the inside of the cool fuel module with black paint.  Fuel (more than likely ethanol in the fuel) delaminates the paint causing the black filter, and eventually this paint clogs the injectors.  I asked her if that would cause the "popping" and she said that it was highly likely because the clogged injectors would cause a lean condition.

She told me that Mercury would cover the parts if I would cover the labor to replace the cool fuel module (includes two pumps, regulator, housing, filter, etc.) AND 8 new fuel injectors!  Only catch is that I have to use a Mercury service center.  No problem as we have one right at the marina.  How's THAT for service?  Fingers crossed this will do the trick.  

1086320403_IMG_1589(768x1024).jpg.0d4e6ca6b665698f32fb68e8ac935db8.jpg

Hmmmm, that Gen III fuel filter IMHO does not look bad...I've seen them look worse with no running issues on a given engine. I have spoken with Michelle in the past and found her to be very sharp and knowledgeable. Having said that, it's the bottom disc filter that is the most important regarding routine replacement according to Merc school teachers I've had.  For reference, Mercury part #'s 35-892665 and 35-8M0093688.  These filters of course will be included with the new Gen III fuel pump assy.

Image result for 35-8M0093688

Do know this; if there is no clutter around the engine, access for a mechanic is excellent on the 250/270 Signature vs the vast majority of boats in its class or even compared against a bowrider, etc. I've worked on the exact same boat as yours that had a MerCruiser 8.2 Mag (a rebadged late model 270 Sig) and there was still room for access. (just so people know, boaters from the Belle Province like their hp)

Seeing they're going to have the Gen III module off, I STRONGLY urge you to have the seawater pump impeller replaced at the same time. They're going to be in there anyway and the fuel pump assy usually needs to be removed first to do the impeller.

An added bonus that you have VesselView7 on the boat - from you description of symptoms this pretty much lets us know the issue is mechanical in nature vs a bad sensor, etc.

Lastly, a question I have is whether anyone has run the engine on a shop outboard fuel tank? Granted a 6.6 gallon sized fuel tank will NOT allow a long boat ride but this is where I'd start. 2nd thing I'd do if that made zero difference is reset the rotor indexing. The HVS distributor (high voltage switch) is VERY sensitive to this for timing. I'll see if I can find the instructions for this later today.

Chris

 

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Your honor.   We the jury have reached a verdict.

Tell the owner about our findings.   Then dump the place …………… Oh yes...……….. Take a LOOOONNGG time to pay any bill.

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Thanks, everybody.  I spoke to my mechanic friend who has been diagnosing this with me over the last couple months.  He couldn't believe the figures.  Note, the estimate was itemized, so the hours I posted for each job were right there on the estimate.  The parts will be here Wednesday and he and I are going to do the work.  Shouldn't take us more than 4-5 hours in our estimation.  The injectors should be pretty easily accessible once we remove the fuel rail.  Fuel module is simple too.

We will definitely do the impeller at the same time.  It was changed last March, but not a bad idea while we've got the fuel module off.  Thanks, Shepherd!

We never ran the boat on an external tank.  We thought about it in order to rule out bad gas, but I never did it.

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14 hours ago, TexasPilot71 said:

Thanks, everybody.  I spoke to my mechanic friend who has been diagnosing this with me over the last couple months.  He couldn't believe the figures.  Note, the estimate was itemized, so the hours I posted for each job were right there on the estimate.  The parts will be here Wednesday and he and I are going to do the work.  Shouldn't take us more than 4-5 hours in our estimation.  The injectors should be pretty easily accessible once we remove the fuel rail.  Fuel module is simple too.

We will definitely do the impeller at the same time.  It was changed last March, but not a bad idea while we've got the fuel module off.  Thanks, Shepherd!

We never ran the boat on an external tank.  We thought about it in order to rule out bad gas, but I never did it.

http://www.marinepartsplus.com/catalog/mercruiser/serialize(value)/350_MAG_MPI_HORIZON_ALPHA-BRAVO/884717003/12840-90

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14 hours ago, Wingnut said:

That's even easier.  I thought the injectors on that engine were in a central fuel injection system like the older GM engines where you would have to remove the intake manifold because the injectors were in that module that is part of the upper intake manifold.  But I suppose that's the difference between CFI and MPI.  If all 8 injectors are right off the fuel rail, then that's even easier. 

Where were they getting 12 hours labor from?

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4 hours ago, Hatem said:

That's even easier.  I thought the injectors on that engine were in a central fuel injection system like the older GM engines where you would have to remove the intake manifold because the injectors were in that module that is part of the upper intake manifold.  But I suppose that's the difference between CFI and MPI.  If all 8 injectors are right off the fuel rail, then that's even easier. 

Where were they getting 12 hours labor from?

Yeah, it's pretty straightforward looking.  My mechanic friend and I are going to tackle it.  He thinks we're talking just an afternoon or so.  I'll post some photos of the top of the engine.  Just for conversation.

qlxtMA8.jpg

dE0Bwf4.jpg

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17 hours ago, TexasPilot71 said:

Yeah, it's pretty straightforward looking.  My mechanic friend and I are going to tackle it.  He thinks we're talking just an afternoon or so.  I'll post some photos of the top of the engine.  Just for conversation.

Yeah you got a fiew things to move out of the way to get to those fuel rails, but not too bad and definitely not 12 hours worth of work including popping out the injectors and installing the new ones and reassembling everything.  Definitely take some pics as you go.

There's a trick to reducing the fuel pressure spray once you disconnect the fuel line from the rail.  Be careful and ask your mechanic about that.  I think it's as simple as opening the gas cap on the tank fill or disconnecting the vent hose prior to disconnecting the fuel line at the rail.  Otherwise you might get a face-full of regular unleaded.  Keep that in mind. 

What I find interesting is what @Shepherd1 was eluding to in the appearance of that black in the fuel filter.  So the ethanol that is delaminating the paint inside the fuel pump is not only delaminating it, but it's diluting it as well.  If it was just delaminating it, you would see flakes in that filter but that doesn't appear to be the case.  And if so, is that diluted paint enough to plug up the injectors?  Is it causing the fuel to have higher viscosity to cause blockage and the eventual popping?  

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One of the three plug in relays in your picture is marked fuel pump. Remove it and attempt to start the engine several times and the fuel rail pressure will go to zero. If you don't have OEM manuals for that engine, send me a PM and I will get them to you.  The cool fuel filter element looks about the same as every one I've ever replaced that was over a year old. I cut the old ones apart and fan them out looking carefully for particulate. A particle has to be at least 40 micron in order to be seen with the naked eye, and these are 10 micron absolute filters so if you can see "glitter" in it, then dealing with it becomes a priority. Ones that are several years old can have a jelly forming around the base plate and I think that happens when the filter soaks in the fogging mixture over the winter and the glue they use to assemble the filter begins to degrade. That's why I always change the element in the spring right after the initial start-up, so the new element is resting in fresh gasoline. As Shepherd mentioned, everyone tends to forget the base screen at the base of the module, and the suction screen affixed to the pump suction side. All cheaper and easier than replacing injectors.   W

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