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Warranty - Cone Clutch

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Any history of alarms? The ECM retains this information, and it’s easy to access. If none related to the drives, something in your favor and helpful to your “fight”. It’s something all thorough and good techs check no mater what the owner says though.

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40 minutes ago, Curt said:

Surprised to hear the port side is failing/failed too. This points to something done the same to both outdrives. No way two fail at 250 hours

Bingo, Curt has bingo! :)

You tell us; you have a superb 2016 307ssx same model as the OP only a year newer (granted with VPs and EVC) but the two brands' DTC should operate almost identically as far as the smoothness of the shifting.  Or should we assume (as usual) that Mercury sucks compared to Volvo?  :haha-7383: Do you get any clanking going into forward or reverse? 

My buddy's' SeaRay has twin Mercs and DTCS (and joystick) and it's as smooth as a baby's assss after a bath and a powdering lmfao.  Love spinning around in that thing.  Although I must say, during the few times that I've taken that thing out, every once in a while I do feel -- much more than I hear -- that ever so familiar sound of gears engaging.  It's very, very mild and almost unnoticeable unless you're actually looking for it.  Most of the other times, absolutely nothing.  I go from idle to neutral for a split second, then slip into reverse and vice-versa and it is smooooooooooth.  But then again, I'm almost always using the joystick and not the TC when I'm on that thing.  Now I'll be looking for it more.

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3 hours ago, Hatem said:

Or should we assume (as usual) that Mercury sucks compared to Volvo? 

I disagree, they don't suck.  I can't speak to how the Bravo III shifts, but can speak to Volvo Penta's that use cone clutches.  With Volvo Penta, regardless if shift cables or fly-by-wire, there is a clunk when put into gear.  It does not sound like a fork being inserted into a cog (click, click, click).  But, please keep in mind what I describe as a clunk someone else might describe as smooth (ah, the weakness of a blog and when we can't all hear it).  No clunk actually supports the notion of wear.  When the matting surfaces wear (ignoring the reason for the moment), they don't engage promptly, spin and "slowly" engage until rotation stops (think how a clutch in a car or motorcycle feels as the clutch is let out... there's a smooth transition from no movement to movement; the cone clutch is more like Mr. Miyagi's wax on wax off... it's designed to be "on or off", actually engaged or not engaged, not so much in between).  "Smoothness" is indicative of wear (again, ignoring the reason for the moment).  The key is to find root cause.  Helpful will be pictures and exact specifics about past maintenance, what caused the service visit, etc.  Heck, a recording of how engagement sounds now will be helpful.  250 hours is a red flag.  But, both failing at more or less the same time is a red flag as well and points to something common.  Our role is to help the OP narrow the possibilities to the likely root cause, e.g. from the universe of how operated, maintenance, assembly, etc. There doesn’t seem to be any obvious (clearly visible) manufacturing defect.

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I had a similar issue with my Volvos on a 327 after about 240 hours. Dealer indicated that joystick activation can contribute to the accelerated wear. There was another issue as well and bottom line is factory covered it. I think I would push harder for resolution under warranty if dealer has done all service since being new.

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Joy sticks are known / COULD BE the problem. I have seen noisy switches or resistors in a joy stick cause multiple make and break signals that the operator was not causing or aware of.  Bad parts  /  incorrect free play. Will / can cause several apply & release signals to the clutch itself. The better joy sticks have time delays built in to prevent needless chatter in a 1/2 second of time.  I have had companies reprogram a longer delay into the command changes.  It prevents.........TEASING.......the amplifiers from needless ON / OFF movements.

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The more techy we get. The more difficult the troubleshooting.

Why the Geezer likes a 2 barrel  carb & dog clutches.  Almost forgot a old fashioned distributor cap & rotor.   :wub:

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2 hours ago, Curt said:

No clunk actually supports the notion of wear.

Which brings up a very interesting and possibly conflicting scenario, being that the OP was told "wear" yet the symptoms are...

6 hours ago, Lemon Aid said:

Thank you very much.  With the clunking/banging I’m feeling and hearing when I go into gear, I can tell it is a new issue that wasn’t ever present prior to the cone service.

What do you mean by "cone service"?  Did you have the cone clutch replaced already then you started experiencing the clunking and banging?

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Actually, lack of clunk. Sorry to have confused.

Cy’s right. Related, unrelated I’d love to meet the person that first put a circuit board and logic on a water heater and a garage door opener and thought it was a great idea. More automation is not always better.

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Anyone look at any 2016 appliance MOTHER Foooooo board ?  It can control a old NASA rocket. It does discourage the DIY crowd.

& service people. NEW mother board. OOPS no change ?  Oh well.

What is next ?

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I was a electrical designer at MSA   Mine safety Apparatus. At about 23. I designed the first I C controlled gas detectors. Even me . The nice guy, saw a need to add lots of useless resistor & capacitors to scare off the D I Y doers.

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19 hours ago, cyclops2 said:

Anyone look at any 2016 appliance MOTHER Foooooo board ?  It can control a old NASA rocket. It does discourage the DIY crowd.

Sure have.  Had this crazy wall oven unit put in on a project and took 5 of us to fit it in carefully without damaging the super expensive custom cabinetry that it was going into.  Effing thing weighed a ton and a half.  It had the double convection with a microwave and warming drawer that was automatic.  Push a button and the door would fold out and tray slide and all that happy stuff.  Finished the project and the homeowner calls me because the thing would make a sound like a siren and actually shake and then trip the breaker.  Called the appliance co. and they replaced the mother foooooo board lmfao TWICE...and still couldn't fix that bizarre problem.  Ended up having to replace the entire unit which was not an easy operation after the place was all finished up.

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   Hatem  YOU HAVE worked with the new IMPROVED EPA mandated equipment. My New Bosh dishwasher is frigging EPA GREEN !!

To satisfy the EPA of less energy ?  The electric drying time is almost nothing. Result ? Open door tip anything with water on it. Like cups.   B  S.

2hours & 24 minutes to do a cycle. Screw the customer with parties !! ME. 

I have to drink  G & Ts out of a full sized water glass.    :wub:

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2 nd EPA green thing they did to the washer !!!!!! They eliminated the multiple stages of filtering food particles & the food particle grinder.

PRE WASH ALL SOILED ITEMS  !!!!!!!!  WHAT ??  How much energy is PEEEED away running my deep well pump ?  And all the city water wasted ?

EPA SUCKS  Total bunch talking green & wasting lots more resources & energy. 

I get carried away on EPA items.

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Just an excuse to not cover it. I deal with extended warranty companies on a daily basis and they look for any possible reason not to stand behind the policy they sell you. That's like saying they aren't going to cover a blocker ring on a manual trans synchro because it wears as normal operation. NONSENSE.

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Hello Lemon Aid, my Cone clutch went at 171 hours on my 2014 Signature with twin Bravo-3.  I am the second owner of the boat, I purchased her from a local chap dealer.  The original owner of the boat took delivery in the spring of 2015.  I was able to find original documentation of the services performed from delivery to the fall of 2016. The boat is still covered by the extended warranty. I had the boat  winterized and the drives pulled by a local well respected authorized Mercrusier marina who found the problem with the Cone clutch. I haven't received the bill yet, but I am responsible for about four hundred dollars for the repair, the rest was covered by the warranty. 

My mechanic told me that while the Cone clutch normally last much longer, he has seen them fail prematurely.

I knew I had some sort of issue when the starboard engine would bang into forward. The interesting thing is that it only banged when I was not in DOCKING mode. In addition I was having a hard time docking after a spirited thirty minute ride.  The problem didn't always happen, which is the strange thing. This leaves me to wonder if the incorrect fluid was used in the drive.

I hope you have issues resolved to your satisfaction promptly.

 

 

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15 hours ago, cpg said:

I knew I had some sort of issue when the starboard engine would bang into forward. The interesting thing is that it only banged when I was not in DOCKING mode.

That's really interesting.  You didn't experience the banging when you put the DTC in docking mode?  Could that have been the problem that caused the failing?

What model Signature do you have?  Any pics?

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I have a 2014 31 Signature. When I was backing into a slip at the beach or my home dock with DOCKING mode engaged, the starboard drive wasn't making any propulsion. When I switch Docking off (Mr friends call it training wheels),  I had to hit about 1,000 RPM (which isn't fun while docking at my local LI beach) to get a response from the propulsion. My mechanic tells me that the DTS  systems is working perfectly.1591451871_Atdock.jpg.519d38752297d1e8a3b282b781da80e1.jpg

20180721_1GPS.JPG

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12 hours ago, cpg said:

I have a 2014 31 Signature. When I was backing into a slip at the beach or my home dock with DOCKING mode engaged, the starboard drive wasn't making any propulsion. When I switch Docking off (Mr friends call it training wheels),  I had to hit about 1,000 RPM (which isn't fun while docking at my local LI beach) to get a response from the propulsion. My mechanic tells me that the DTS  systems is working perfectly.

1591451871_Atdock.jpg.519d38752297d1e8a3b282b781da80e1.jpg

 

Beautiful boat.  I think I remember you posting in another thread about the Sig-310 performance numbers. 

So when you put in docking mode, that should cut power to the engines by 50% I think, which is actually a great feature and a good practice TBH.  Training wheels hahaha, ball-busting buddies you got there.  Reminds me of the few tough guys around here who call the joystick a tool for unskilled boaters.  I happen to vehemently disagree with that silly notion.  Anything that adds ease and comfort results in safety which no one can argue with.

As far as RPMs; in neutral you should be around 600 rpm and to get the props spinning at minimum, you should be up and around 700-800 rpm and not much more, especially with twins.  Although a Sig 310 is a bit heavy and could probably use a bit more power to move it a little, 1000 rpm sounds a tad bit too much.  And if the mechanic thinks the DTS is working fine, hopefully the repair of the cone clutch takes care of the problem.  It would be great if he or you took some pics of the damaged parts to see what they look like.  Hopefully it's not too late to do that.

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12 hours ago, cpg said:

I have a 2014 31 Signature. When I was backing into a slip at the beach or my home dock with DOCKING mode engaged, the starboard drive wasn't making any propulsion. When I switch Docking off (Mr friends call it training wheels),  I had to hit about 1,000 RPM (which isn't fun while docking at my local LI beach) to get a response from the propulsion. My mechanic tells me that the DTS  systems is working perfectly.1591451871_Atdock.jpg.519d38752297d1e8a3b282b781da80e1.jpg

20180721_1GPS.JPG

Having both drives trimmed full in during tight maneuvers at the dock will improved responsiveness markedly. W

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My old Merc controls had the trim switch in a different position, I have accidentally performed docking maneuvers with the trim uneven or down. The results weren't good!

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On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 10:10 PM, Lemon Aid said:

Additionally, worn is not covered only when a failure has not incurred.  This is intended to avoid parts being replaced when there is not a failure (ex a part being slightly worn but not failing).  In reality, every part wears every second after it’s produced.  In my example a failure did occur...the propellers wouldn’t spin when put into gear, which actually creates a safety liability.  It’s basically like your brakes on your car not working. 

I don’t accept the interpretation that something wearing on my cone clutch is not covered with 250 hrs.  It’s a cop-out.   This is just misleading warranty and someone trying to spin it in their financial favor.  

You'll have to update us with regards to this so that we can see if this highly touted Mercury service actually does come through for you and maintains the truth about this supposedly unparalleled service they provide that people are constantly raving about.  So far I'm calling BS on that! :haha-7383: 

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I am starting the great debate as to the root cause for the cone clutches failing.  I am refusing at this point to pay the bill until we come to conclusion.

So either they need to blame me for somehow wearing the cone clutches, or find the technical reason, including improper assembly.  

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I feel your pain.  I've been on this forum since 2008 or so and have seen multiple posts regarding B3 failures (including my own), and non re: the Alphas.  Just my experience and point of view . . . 

Good luck

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On 1/3/2019 at 10:58 PM, Lemon Aid said:

I am original owner.  Lived in Michigan for 2015, 2016 and 2017 and drove total of 200 hours, of which was serviced lastly in Michigan at end of 2016 season.  For 2017 I barely used the boat.  Kept the boat in heated rack storage 100% of the time. I followed the recommended service which I believe was at 20 hours, 100 hours, and 200 hours.  All with Mercury recommended motor oil and lubricants.  In 2018 when I moved to Florida, I decided to change oil and drive lube...I experienced the starboard motor not going into gear a couple weeks before my 2018 service.  Took it to Chap dealer...he believed it was cone clutch but didn’t have the equipment in his shop to do the work. I then took it to a mercuiser authorized dealer and they test drove it and said the port side was also starting to go...

For the claim, the technician said he drained lube and checked it for wear, found none   Then checked gears and cone...found wear on the cone - replaced cone, sea trialed and it performed  

 

Just my personal observation, but I find if a person uses the joystick / Axius option, then the cone clutch operates a lot more in that B3 drive than during normal docking. Would be interested in seeing the condition of the gear oil at the 200 hour mark (I am assuming it would have last been changed out 100 hours earlier and was probably in dire need of replacement) That being said, I would hope Mercury will come to the table.

NOTE: around 2007 when Volvo introduced their DPS-A they had a lot more 'clunk' when they go into gear than older DP-SM models. This was a result of Volvo wanting to make the cone clutch of these drives be more durable. Kind of cringe worthy though on say a 23' boat or Joystick equipped boats with a DPS-A or -B when shifting into gear compared to the old DP-SM drives which were very smooth and quiet when going into gear. Mercury conversely improved their Bravo 3 in 2005 and went with a very smooth and quite design that is still used today.

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