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Toddavid

VP DP-S drive service

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I've had the same experience - the 3852565 part does not fit - I take the old ones in, and the match it....maybe I'll order a few of the 997368 p/n thingies, they look more like it. Reduculous to pay $4.86 for an o-ring,. sigh!

 

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Glad I'm not the only one experiencing this weirdness with silly mismatching of parts numbers for a couple of O-rings that should be cheap and easy to find.  The ones I matched exactly at the hardware store were $0.45 a piece.  They fit perfectly too, but my only apprehension about using them is the possibility of them being a different type of rubber that's not designed for such friction, high heat and RPMs from that spinning shaft.

Tough to take a chance on something like that, even if it seems somewhat insignificant, it really isn't.  Those O-rings come apart and start spitting into the coupler etc....not worth the risk.

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The only problem would be the chemical type of grease or oil that is ever touching the chemical type of material, the O ring is made of.   Some oils or grease can attack O rings.

Some older types of brake fluid ALWAYS attacked the rubber parts of brake systems.

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I think most of the everyday O-rings are made out of nitrile, which is resistant to most lubricants and greases but not really to higher temps.  The ones that are more ideal for higher temp applications are made out of propylene, but it's hard to tell which of these are what unless they come packaged for this specific use.  In other words, I don't think an O-ring you stick in a faucet is the same one you put on a VP drive shaft that spins and handles the heat of 5000 RPM.

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On 4/12/2019 at 4:17 PM, Toddavid said:

Well that was a heck of a productive day.

Kicked it off at 8am:

Adjusted hitch on new tow vehicle to boat trailer

Uncovered boat

Installed batteries

Put her on muffs and fired her up after winter nap, engine caught on first rotation of starter (love when that happens)

Ran her up to temp

Built a drive cradle out of 2x4s

Pulled the drive

Cleaned up some corrosion, primed and painted

Changed out impeller

Changed out exhaust and heat exchanger anodes

Inspected transom, checked engine alignment

Cleaned and greased all points

Reinstalled drive

Installed and timed props

Fired her up again to check new impeller action and to ensure proper gear engagement 

Checked trailer tire pressures 

Replaced a half dozen snaps on the carpets

Power cleaned the carpets

Vacuumed out tow vehicle (why not)

Put her back into spot and covered her up just before the rain at 4pm.

 

All went according to plan, had all the proper parts I needed. I have a DPS-B 2.14 and I discovered that the u-joints are sealed, no zerks.

Next Friday, she gets a full clean and seal, and then splashes Saturday. Home stretch!

What do you mean by times props? 

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What do you mean by times props?   On a dual prop drive with twin 3 blade props, no two blades should pass under the cavitation plate at the same time. During installation, the front prop gets installed with the center-line of a blade at the 12:00 position. The rear prop gets installed with a single blade center-line pointing to 6:00. Not necessary on the 3 x 4 blade prop packages. They call it prop phasing and doing it correctly seems to help with reducing vibration in cornering, and I feel it helps to reduce prop blow-out in tight turns. Who know if it really eworks, but I feel that it does and it costs nothing to find out.  W

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On ‎5‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 12:04 PM, Toddavid said:

For what it's worth, this is what I ordered for my DPS-B and they were correct:

http://www.cecilmarineonline.com/o-ring-997368/

At least those O-rings are for almost every single U-joint shaft that VP makes.  So they're somewhat universal for Volvo which makes it a bit easier, only if every place actually carries the rightly corresponding part #.  But what's strange, though, is that 385# that is listed on the VP schematic itself for all the DPS-A's and B's is not for the correct-sized O-rings.  Something is wrong for sure because both places (including the VP distributer) gave me the wrong (larger) O-rings according to the 385# on the Volvo Penta schematic.  Man, Volvo sucks! :D 

BTW, I was wrong about the U-joints on mine when I said they have the zerk fittings for the grease.  They don't.  They're completely sealed which actually sucks also because they should be accessible to grease.  I don't think the lifetime of a self-enclosed greased system like this lasts longer than one that you can actually periodically grease yourself.  Another VP suck!

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On ‎5‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 12:04 PM, Toddavid said:

For what it's worth, this is what I ordered for my DPS-B and they were correct:

http://www.cecilmarineonline.com/o-ring-997368/

As promised, you asked me to take pics and here I am coming through!  Homemade hack cart worked great, but this #$%$&$% O-ring business is driving me insane.

slOjNjR.jpg

P4owk9i.jpg

3v4Z1Zd.jpg

Here are the disasters.  Bottom row are the O-rings I just took off the shaft.  Top O-rings are Cecil Marine ones that just came in today loooooooool!  They're the same exact size ones I got from the marina store and from Power Products (local VP distributer).  I've changed quite a few O-rings in my lifetime and I've seen some worn out ones etc., but every single time the new ones are tighter than the old ones that come out, not 1/4" larger!  WTF is wrong with this picture?  Anyone?  TD?  Curtzation?  Chap243?  Do I have a rogue shaft?  I'm definitely getting the shaft! LMFAO!

MwvWlzn.jpg

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14 minutes ago, Hatem said:

As promised, you asked me to take pics and here I am coming through!  Homemade hack cart worked great, but this #$%$&$% O-ring business is driving me insane.

slOjNjR.jpg

P4owk9i.jpg

3v4Z1Zd.jpg

Here are the disasters.  Bottom row are the O-rings I just took off the shaft.  Top O-rings are Cecil Marine ones that just came in today loooooooool!  They're the same exact size ones I got from the marina store and from Power Products (local VP distributer).  I've changed quite a few O-rings in my lifetime and I've seen some worn out ones etc., but every single time the new ones are tighter than the old ones that come out, not 1/4" larger!  WTF is wrong with this picture?  Anyone?  TD?  Curtzation?  Chap243?  Do I have a rogue shaft?  I'm definitely getting the shaft! LMFAO!

MwvWlzn.jpg

What part number is on the shaft?

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9 minutes ago, Curt said:

What part number is on the shaft?

I can't see any number on the shaft itself, Curt.  But the center U-joint (#2 in schematic bellow) that connects the shaft U and the other outdrive U (part A) on the other side has this:

3GKN 10W05 21181287.  3GKN seems to be stamped on both ends of the U-joints as well. 

Exploded view / schematic

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2 hours ago, Hatem said:

I can't see any number on the shaft itself, Curt.  But the center U-joint (#2 in schematic bellow) that connects the shaft U and the other outdrive U (part A) on the other side has this:

3GKN 10W05 21181287.  3GKN seems to be stamped on both ends of the U-joints as well. 

Exploded view / schematic

Thank you. GKN is the manufacturer. 3852565 and 997368 are interchangeable, and correct. I'll stop by the shop in the morning and message then.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Curt said:

Thank you. GKN is the manufacturer. 3852565 and 997368 are interchangeable, and correct. I'll stop by the shop in the morning and message then.

The only thing I can think of was the last time the dealer pulled it out and inspected it, they might've put those smaller O-rings on there and all these larger ones are the correct ones even thought they barely sit in the slots like you would expect O-rings to.  They keep showing up as the correct sized ones to fit so frig it, they're going in and we're moving on.  Thanks anyway, Curt.  Don't sweat it, appreciate your help. 

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On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 5:17 PM, Toddavid said:

Well that was a heck of a productive day.

Kicked it off at 8am:

Adjusted hitch on new tow vehicle to boat trailer

Uncovered boat

Installed batteries

Put her on muffs and fired her up after winter nap, engine caught on first rotation of starter (love when that happens)

Ran her up to temp

Built a drive cradle out of 2x4s

Pulled the drive

Cleaned up some corrosion, primed and painted

Changed out impeller

Changed out exhaust and heat exchanger anodes

Inspected transom, checked engine alignment

Cleaned and greased all points

Reinstalled drive

Installed and timed props

Fired her up again to check new impeller action and to ensure proper gear engagement 

Checked trailer tire pressures 

Replaced a half dozen snaps on the carpets

Power cleaned the carpets

Vacuumed out tow vehicle (why not)

Put her back into spot and covered her up just before the rain at 4pm.

 

All went according to plan, had all the proper parts I needed. I have a DPS-B 2.14 and I discovered that the u-joints are sealed, no zerks.

Next Friday, she gets a full clean and seal, and then splashes Saturday. Home stretch!

Let's see if yours looks half as good as this thing, pal!

cOkWHa8.jpg

APkPwcv.jpg

MVN4KyK.jpg

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My O rings look like the smaller of those two sizes. Admittingly, I have not replaced them in a couple years, so I have not bought new recently.

The drive looks good, at this point, I usually take a Black wide permanent marker and highlight the Volvo Penta, then spray a clear coat on it.

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On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 10:35 AM, Chap243 said:

My O rings look like the smaller of those two sizes. Admittingly, I have not replaced them in a couple years, so I have not bought new recently.

Yeah man I'm telling you something isn't right.  if only @ToddDavid would chime in as to whether the original ones he pulled out and replaced were the same size as the ones that were in there, I'd know that mine were probably the wrong ones and these new ones are in fact the correct ones.  That's the only explanation I can think of because they were a bit tight to take out and the new ones do fit, just not as snug as the old ones and if 3 different places sent me the same O-rings that are bigger, then I can only assume the older and smaller ones that were on there weren't the correct ones.  I'm 99.99999% sure O-rings DO NOT shrink in time and usage, even in excessive heat.  It's quite the opposite and they stretch. 

On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 10:35 AM, Chap243 said:

The drive looks good, at this point, I usually take a Black wide permanent marker and highlight the Volvo Penta, then spray a clear coat on it.

Are you talking about the Volvo Penta on the side of that upper case cover? That's  good idea.

 You can't see it very well but I taped off the couple of the Volvo Penta Emblems before spraying the paint.  The bottom bullet part of the drive I'll paint once it's back on since I can't reach it very well with the sprayer while it's on the cart.  I also soaked the props in this stuff which I even used in the bilge and it worked GREAT on all the oily and rusty spots.  The bilge gelcoat looks brand new in there I was psyched but had to be really careful with it not getting on wires and cables etc, since you know what it really is?  It's glorified Muriatic acid lol.  They might've just added a pinch of water and/or bleach to it and called it ON & OFF.  But it's 100% Muriatic acid and I can tell just by the smell of it.  Works great, though.  Had to attach different brushes to the end of roller poles to reach the hard areas.  Go back over them with a mix of 50/50 Simple Green and hot water and what a result.

gatnksD.jpg 

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Oh and BTW, I've discovered that a great percentage of the water that comes in while underway and especially when it rains is from those air vents on the side.  Those are horribly protected against water intrusion is many ways.  The way they face and that cover plate is about as lousy as it gets for the way it's fastened to the hull.  That's getting fixed ASAP no that the bilge is dry and clean, we want to keep it that way.  Plus I think the starboard swim platform popup cleat is alsot leaking water and that's going to be a nightmare getting to the nuts underneath it to remove it and put better sealant on.

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Drive looks great, my last boat had a pretty corroded Bravo3 that I pulled and did the whole rework like you did there, with new decals and multi-coats of OE paint. So pretty to look the one time a year I put my boat back on the trailer, heh (but I had peace of mind it wasn't corroding away on me when I couldn't see it).

My VP had some small spots so it got a much less "caring" make over.

The o-rings I got from Cecil were a direct replacement for the ones I pulled off, and they sat tight to the groove bore, no slop.

 

 

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What I found interesting, though, is that because I had to put the throttle into full forward position to set the cable out far enough to disconnect it at the outdrive, I didn't notice until a few days later that my RPM gauge is at 2000 and just staying there with everything off.  I'm thinking it probably has something to do with the throttle position sensor sending a reading to the EMC, which then figures there's no actual power being delivered but then sends a signal to the gauge anyway and puts it at 2000. 

Anyone else ever see that?

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21 hours ago, Toddavid said:

Drive looks great, my last boat had a pretty corroded Bravo3 that I pulled and did the whole rework like you did there, with new decals and multi-coats of OE paint. So pretty to look the one time a year I put my boat back on the trailer, heh (but I had peace of mind it wasn't corroding away on me when I couldn't see it).

My VP had some small spots so it got a much less "caring" make over.

The o-rings I got from Cecil were a direct replacement for the ones I pulled off, and they sat tight to the groove bore, no slop.

The design of that VP drive is rather unusual, especially the seal that @Chap243 was referring to.  That thing only goes around the bottom exhaust section but there is no seal for the entire top half of the mating surfaces of the drive where the U-joint insert is?!  So what prevents water from getting into the U-joints?  Because you know the bottom seal works well, but where the drive connects above it will most definitely allow water to enter and the only thing I can think of that prevents any water from entering the bellows and flooding the U-joints is where the end of the round, cylindrical casing of the shaft meets the end flap of the bellows.  Once you tighten the studs and that casing pushes up against that end of the bellows, I guess it creates enough of a seal to prevent water from getting into the bellows and flood the U-joints/shaft? 

OR, does water actually get in there where the universal joint is spinning and the only barrier to preventing water from traversing further into the coupler and engine are those two, lousy little O-rings?  I can't believe that would be the case.  Maybe that's why those U-joints are permanently sealed with no zerk fittings because they're engulfed in water all the time?  Hard to believe that shaft & universal joint spins in water, but also hard to believe the only stop gap seal is the shaft casing on the drive butting up against the bellows that keeps out all that water.  Strange design.  I'd much rather see a seal that wraps around the entire connection of the drive to the housing plate, kinda like the Mercs do (at least the Alpha does IIRC) and not just that little exhaust gasket.  Man, Volvo sucks!  :D 

So @Curt, I noticed the pulley is in really bad shape and paint flaking off and kinda rusty and @#$%@#, so I took it off and been soaking it in muriatic acid overnight and now I'll be putting it in CRL for another few hours and then wire-brushing it and then will paint it.  Hopefully that, along with a new serpentine belt will stop anymore of that flaking I was getting.

lKdr2oJ.jpg

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Yes, this seems to be the design: the cone shaped interface bottoms out against the lip of the bellows. Since it seems to work, with less parts, not sure it sucks?

And they also have redundancy should there be a leak, with the orings at the gimbal. 

Different than Merc, but not sure it's worse?

All I found in my bellows when I pulled the drive was emulsified grease. Speaking of grease, waterproof variety applied properly to the cone surface, as directed, will also act as another intrusion barrier.

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43 minutes ago, Toddavid said:

Yes, this seems to be the design: the cone shaped interface bottoms out against the lip of the bellows. Since it seems to work, with less parts, not sure it sucks?

And they also have redundancy should there be a leak, with the orings at the gimbal.

That's why I was dreading that size discrepancy in the O-rings I pulled out vs the new ones that were the same from 3 different reliable sources and the ones you used.  Only thing I could think of was that the dealer who did the original service put those slightly smaller but beefier rings in and apparently they did the job.  I really hope these work because it will suck if they don't and water gets to the coupler.  Plus once you finally align the splines on the shaft and give the drive that final push in snug,  you can't tell if the O-ring sat in place and made a good seal or were shanked out.  But since they're the correct part number and despite they sat in the notch snug but not as tight as the older, smaller ones, it should be  ok.  I'll be looking really carefully at the back of the bilge as much as I possibly can once it's splashed and we're doing our shakedown run.

54 minutes ago, Toddavid said:

Different than Merc, but not sure it's worse?

 I'm just playing with the suck comment since I use it almost exclusively with Mercury.

55 minutes ago, Toddavid said:

All I found in my bellows when I pulled the drive was emulsified grease.

Same here.  I tried cleaning as much of that  old crap way inside and put new stuff everywhere.

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The key to a dry bellows that I have found is to apply a liberal amount of triple guard grease to the "nose" taper of the upper gearcase and the rubber ring of the bellows. When compressed back together the seal is formed. It works pretty well.

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13 hours ago, Hatem said:

Maybe that's why those U-joints are permanently sealed with no zerk fittings because they're engulfed in water all the time? 

The shaft is not spinning in water, and the bellows/boots are dry unless there’s a failure of some kind. Water is bad.

Sealed needle bearings are used these days because they’ve proven more reliable and lower an OEM’s cost by decreasing assembly time. They’ve been used extensively by marine, auto and heavy truck builders for a decade plus now. There are things to worry about, but not these. 

The o-rings are not supposed to be sloppy, nor tight like a rubber band. 

I’m glad you went that way with the pulley instead of stainless. Suggest a high temperature paint, and not painting the notch. I’m sure it will need redone in the future, but you're in salt/brackish where hot warm air gets trapped in the engine bay. Setting that aside, it’s going to look great, and nicely compliment that spotless engine bay.

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20 hours ago, Chap243 said:

The key to a dry bellows that I have found is to apply a liberal amount of triple guard grease to the "nose" taper of the upper gearcase and the rubber ring of the bellows. When compressed back together the seal is formed. It works pretty well.

That's what I did.  Followed the directions to a T.  I even used paint thinner (since it's really the only good solvent that dilutes grease) and removed all the old grease on the splines of the shaft.  Wiped them down well and added new grease.  Then I put a nice, thick bead of that @#$%@# around the bellows lip and that edge of that cone and pushed the shaft it.  I'll tell ya, the height of that crappy little wooden cart was perfect.  All I had to do was lower the bow on the trailer and it was dead level.  Then I turned the prop shaft a little counter clockwise to get the splines to line up with the grooves and woosh, the rest of the way was a matter of rolling the cart forward. 

Here's the odd thing that's been happening so far (aside from the impeller which I'll get to in a minute what a disaster that was and I'm furious at the guy at Power Products) is as soon as I disconnected the throttle cable from the linkage on the outdirve, my RPMs went up to 2000 and stayed there with all switches turned off.  I thought it  might've been because I had the throttle in full forward to get the cable as far out as possible like it's always done and maybe there's some residual electrical current that tells the ECM the throttle is in full forward position but since nothing is on, it only goes up to 2000RPM?  So when I was finally done with everything and I cranked it,  needle dropped down to  0 then back up to 750 while my smartcraft gauge was reading 590-600RPM.  When I shut it off, it dropped to 0 and I thought great, maybe it was just a glitch and a second later wooop, back up to 2000 RPM.  So not sure what is going on there?

11 hours ago, Curt said:

The shaft is not spinning in water, and the bellows/boots are dry unless there’s a failure of some kind. Water is bad.

Yeah I kinda knew that.  :) I was just saying because of the way that design is, it just seems like water could easily get in there and I'm surprise it doesn't TBH.  There's hardly any pressure -- that I felt anyway -- of the cone casing butting up against the flat lip of the bellows.  If I could feel substantial resistance when tightening the drive bolts and could feel the rubber pushing against the shaft cone, I'd say ok, that works.  But I didn't feel that good resistance that you feel when you tighten something up to stop water and then to rely on a bead of grease to complete the seal?  That's crazy!  Why not just make a full and reliable gasket that goes all the way around it as well as this setup?  It would be so much better.  I'm not sure why Volvo allows all that water to get into the inside of that plastic cover and onto the throttle linkage etc.  Keep it all out would be so much better.  I just never liked that setup.

11 hours ago, Curt said:

The o-rings are not supposed to be sloppy, nor tight like a rubber band.

Well, you saw the pic of the difference between what was already on there that worked perfectly fine for almost 4 years, and the supposedly correct ones, right?  Definitely cause for concern.

11 hours ago, Curt said:

I’m glad you went that way with the pulley instead of stainless. Suggest a high temperature paint, and not painting the notch. I’m sure it will need redone in the future, but you're in salt/brackish where hot warm air gets trapped in the engine bay. Setting that aside, it’s going to look great, and nicely compliment that spotless engine bay.

I'll tell you what, Curt, if I had the time to run around and search for the right stainless steel pulley, I would've done it in a heartbeat.  Why not?  And what notch are you talking about?  I sprayed the whole gaddam thing with 2 coats of Rust-oleum engine black I guess it withstands heat up to 500 degrees.

z8ZuG5J.jpg

And I'm in Ocean, all 100% salt water we don't have brackish water here.  Even our favorite Annisquam river is basically a cut between Glouchester to Cape Ann and it's all salt water.  I'll take a picture of the engine bay and bilge because I was surprised at how well that On-Off worked on all the rusted spots and cleaned it up really nicely.

Oh and I used the same SS polish and pad that I used on the windlass roller to polish the props.  That stuff works well.

vEcwNNc.jpg

d7rP3aq.jpg

But I see some pitting on one of the blades.  Can you see them in this pic?  Gotta clean your screen if it's dirty.

uyFbHKB.jpg

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