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Chap243

New motor wont start- need advise.

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Guys, need help. As many of you know, I had to replace my engine due to oil system failure (long story). I have a new long block VP 5.7 gxi-j installed and all hooked up. The block and heads are all new. All  other components were transferred over from the old engine, ECM, intake manifold, fuel rail, injectors and distributor.  I turned the key yesterday attempting its first start. The fuel cell charges. I get the traditional two to three beeps then silence, no continuous beeps. The engine acts like it wants to start, for a second, then dies. I tried several times throughout the day, same result. Brief fire, then goes dead.

 I am ordering the Rinda Techmate tool today to see if there are any stored codes in the ECM that may be effecting this. Any suggestions before I throw in the towel, admit defeat and take it to the dealership.

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If it starts (or catches), then coughs and quits it sounds like timing.  Please remember, timing has to be calibrated and this can only be completed through the ECM (this is deeper than reading codes, although knowing if a code has been set is helpful but keep in mind unless codes were cleared from the prior engine, this information may not be helpful now).  The only way to calibrate timing, assuming base timing is set and the distributor installed correctly, is Volvo Penta's software or Rinda's Diacom.  Rinda's Tech Mate is a scan tool, and cannot perform the necessary calibration.  No matter what you do, you'll need the calibration done otherwise the engine won't perform correctly.  Now, that being said, some engines can be put into calibration mode (a.k.a. start-up mode) by jumping two particular pins.  However this mode is accessed, either through the ECM or by jumpering, it's necessary to get the motor to initially start and then calibrate timing.  Without knowing the year, serial number, etc. of the original engine can't say if jumpering is an option for your particular set-up.  I don't believe it is, but it's always best not to assume.  PM your email and I'll send a PDF containing what you need.

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You can try turning the distributor a little and see if it acts any different. Also try opening the throttle plate and spray some carb cleaner in and see if it will run off of that.

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20 hours ago, Chap243 said:

Guys, need help. As many of you know, I had to replace my engine due to oil system failure (long story). I have a new long block VP 5.7 gxi-j installed and all hooked up. The block and heads are all new. All  other components were transferred over from the old engine, ECM, intake manifold, fuel rail, injectors and distributor.  I turned the key yesterday attempting its first start. The fuel cell charges. I get the traditional two to three beeps then silence, no continuous beeps. The engine acts like it wants to start, for a second, then dies. I tried several times throughout the day, same result. Brief fire, then goes dead.

 I am ordering the Rinda Techmate tool today to see if there are any stored codes in the ECM that may be effecting this. Any suggestions before I throw in the towel, admit defeat and take it to the dealership.

First thing I would do to be sure it's not a fuel-related problem is get a can of starter fluid and spray it into the intake and see if it'll start and run until the fluid burns out.  If it does, then you have a fuel-related problem.  Check fuel pressure then go from there.

Is it a distributer or an ignition coil pack on that 5.7Gx-i?

If it's either or, the next thing is to check your electrical system.  Check and see if you're getting adequate spark.  You know how to pull out a spark plug and wire and jump it to the negative terminal on the battery?  If you don't, I can show you the procedure it's really easy.  Try that first.  Then check any of the ignition related fuses.  If all that looks good, then follow your spark plugs back to whatever system you have on the 5.7 Gxi.  There's really simple and very safe tricks with a pair of screw drivers and a jumper able also hooked up to your negative terminal on your battery to test if you're getting enough or any spark from the ignition coil pack, or like I mentioned before, to your spark plugs if you have a distributer.

If you have only an ignition coil pack, check the wire from the ignition coil to the ECM.  Make sure it's not frayed and you're getting 12vlts from that wire.  You can just pull the quick-connect and stick a volt-meter in there.  Check the ground wire on the ignition coil pack. 

Check your crankshaft position sensor.  Find the harness wire to it and test the voltage coming out of it to the ECM. 

If all the above checks out, then it would be time to move to the ECM which Curt mentioned.

 

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Check the fuel system first like Hatem suggested.  When you turn the key make sure you hear the fuel pump, ensure you have new filters installed and if your fuel has been sitting in there awhile you might want to treat it.  Cleaning those injectors wouldn't hurt either.  It sounds like it's getting spark but the timing could be off, but I'd look into that as a last resort and check the obvious possible issues first.  Over the years, I've tended to over think things and It's usually something very simple and stupid - like a plug wire not seated properly on a plug or a basic fuel issue as stated above.

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I would try putting some gas in your water separators

 

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Jeffk has a point but first unscrew them and dump the contents in a glass jar.  If there is water in the fuel you'll be able to tell.  If there is, they sell something called Water Zorb.  It takes water from condensation, contaminated fuel, and leaky filler cap gaskets, and emulsifies and disperses it right into the fuel, allowing it to pass through filters and safely burn away with the fuel.  If you have no water in your fuel - yes, add some gas to the separators and try to restart. 

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If it is watered down gasoline ?  I have proved that by opening the throttle lever to about 1/3 of power position. Then crank away . It will normally run on gasoline with no smell on my small 2 cycle OB motors.  The key to starting is a fast hotter burning mixture. Rough as heck.

DO NOT RUN LIKE THIS WITH WATERED GASOLINE !!   The cylinder walls are without enough oil.  You can ruin them if unlucky. It is a quick way to prove watered gasoline

 

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Plugged in to a Rinda Techmate today, no new faults found. Bled fuel system, checked fuses and breakers, still same symptom. Starts briefly then dies. I will check fuel pressure and spark tomorrow and possibly reset the distributor in case it was installed improperly. Appreciate all your help.

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8 hours ago, Chap243 said:

Plugged in to a Rinda Techmate today, no new faults found. Bled fuel system, checked fuses and breakers, still same symptom. Starts briefly then dies. I will check fuel pressure and spark tomorrow and possibly reset the distributor in case it was installed improperly. Appreciate all your help.

Sounds like a fuel problem more so than anything else.  This is really worth doing - go to Walmart or Auto Zone and get a can of engine starting fluid made by Super Tech, it's less than $3.  Then find a spot in the air intake passageway and spray 2-3 squirts in there and try starting it.  If it turns over and runs for about 5 seconds, that means it burnt up that starting fluid and then you'll know it's a fuel issue and not necessarily an electric one.  If it doesn't, then it could be electrical.  Really easy to do and will round things down for you.  I would start with that before anything and then check fuel pressure like you said.

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NEED to be VERY accurate on how the engine dies.  Sounds like a loose connection I had on a 2002   5.0L engine. Cold starting engine.

Turn the key to starter and instant fire up. as soon as I let the key go back to IGNITION / run position. It would stop instantly. Did this 5 times in a row. I restarted & HELD THE KEY in the starter position engine & starter kept running. Moved the throttle up to about 1000 rpm as a test. Kept running. Released the starter position. instant dead engine. 

Called my mechanic & told him about it.

Piece of cake he said. I show him & he does it also.  Says the computer is toast.

Whips out his pocket knife & opens the small blade out.  Pulls the big electrical connector apart  on the engine. Spreads each SPLIT PIN VERY SLIGHTLY. Reconnects the connector.

Restarts it normally forever.

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5 hours ago, cyclops2 said:

NEED to be VERY accurate on how the engine dies.  Sounds like a loose connection I had on a 2002   5.0L engine. Cold starting engine.

Turn the key to starter and instant fire up. as soon as I let the key go back to IGNITION / run position. It would stop instantly. Did this 5 times in a row. I restarted & HELD THE KEY in the starter position engine & starter kept running. Moved the throttle up to about 1000 rpm as a test. Kept running. Released the starter position. instant dead engine. 

Called my mechanic & told him about it.

Piece of cake he said. I show him & he does it also.  Says the computer is toast.

Whips out his pocket knife & opens the small blade out.  Pulls the big electrical connector apart  on the engine. Spreads each SPLIT PIN VERY SLIGHTLY. Reconnects the connector.

Restarts it normally forever.

Cy, that’s about exactly what I am experiencing. I’ll give that connector a second look as soon as it stops raining.

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My 81 year old stock car & marine mechanic said it is a very common problem area. The pins slowly loose tension.

Obviously ANY of the electrical engine parts can go wacky if they go thru a pin...………. It can drive people nuts if they are not electrically really sharp.

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I want to update my post in order to assist someone in a similar situation. It turned out being a faulty crankcase position sensor causing the non start. This was a new sensor that I had purchased as part of my new engine swap. I opted to purchase an aftermarket sensor from ebay for about $25 rather than spend the $180 for the OEM sensor. The parts looked identical. I don't know if it was just random bad luck that I got a bad unit or what. I have elected to have the dealership install the OEM part at full price. Lesson learned. Some aftermarket parts are worthwhile, some are not.

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Chap

 You BAD luck is proof that bad luck can hit anyone.  I have had streaks like yours. When I found girls more interesting than cars.       :beat-dead-horse:

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I'm using aftermarket sensors. Has anyone else had this problem? I know my map sensor from the parts store wasn't right but they couldn't match the numbers up.

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19 hours ago, Chap243 said:

I want to update my post in order to assist someone in a similar situation. It turned out being a faulty crankcase position sensor causing the non start. This was a new sensor that I had purchased as part of my new engine swap. I opted to purchase an aftermarket sensor from ebay for about $25 rather than spend the $180 for the OEM sensor. The parts looked identical. I don't know if it was just random bad luck that I got a bad unit or what. I have elected to have the dealership install the OEM part at full price. Lesson learned. Some aftermarket parts are worthwhile, some are not.

Makes sense.  4-stroke engines need to be in synch at startup for the correct amount of fuel to be injected.  It basically takes care of timing your engine automatically in fuel-injected engines instead of manually doing it like the old days.  At least it was a simple item and relatively inexpensive in the grand scheme of things.  Although I bet you would've been pumped had it started in your driveway or garage that day.  Still, you did 98.9% of the work yourself which is commendable.

BTW, I missed the part about the old engine.  I know it was oil-related but what exactly happened?  Obviously you didn't get water in the cylinders since you reused the old manifolds and risers. 

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1 hour ago, Hatem said:

Makes sense.  4-stroke engines need to be in synch at startup for the correct amount of fuel to be injected.  It basically takes care of timing your engine automatically in fuel-injected engines instead of manually doing it like the old days.  At least it was a simple item and relatively inexpensive in the grand scheme of things.  Although I bet you would've been pumped had it started in your driveway or garage that day.  Still, you did 98.9% of the work yourself which is commendable.

BTW, I missed the part about the old engine.  I know it was oil-related but what exactly happened?  Obviously you didn't get water in the cylinders since you reused the old manifolds and risers. 

Somehow the engine was aggressively consuming the oil. I don't know if it was worn piston rings or valve guides or what. The engine had 442 hours on it.  Some people have said that that series of GM blocks eat oil for some reason. All I know is that I added five quarts of Mobil 1 in April and by September it was gone. Yes, I checked the dipstick periodically, and oil was present. Honestly Volvo`s dipstick system needs some refinements, and can lead to false readings. I even checked it the morning of the failure and gave a false reading of being good. When the alarm intermittently started going off, I believed it to be a bad sender as it would cut in and out. By the time I added additional oil, out in the middle of the lake, the damage had been done and motor seized. I just could not imagine burning through five quarts of oil in a few months of use.

In hindsight I should have seen this coming. In previous years of draining the oil at the end of season, I was never able to pull out the five quarts that should have been in there. I chalked it up to the inefficient suction system inherit to most marine motors. When in truth, I was getting most of the oil out, it was just wasn't in there as the engine had begun to consume it during the season.

Yes, it has been an expensive lesson, but by doing a lot of the engine pull, build and re-install myself I made it a little more palatable financially. I also have gained a lot more understanding about my engine and marine engines in general. I took a chance on an aftermarket sensor(crankshaft) that ended up costing me a few hundred extra dollars but now, I have a new engine with 0 hours. Maybe I can get some of my money back when/if I go to sell the boat. With a little luck, and weather permitting, the boat should back in the slip next week after a good clean up.

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On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 9:29 AM, Chap243 said:

Somehow the engine was aggressively consuming the oil. I don't know if it was worn piston rings or valve guides or what. The engine had 442 hours on it.  Some people have said that that series of GM blocks eat oil for some reason. All I know is that I added five quarts of Mobil 1 in April and by September it was gone. Yes, I checked the dipstick periodically, and oil was present. Honestly Volvo`s dipstick system needs some refinements, and can lead to false readings. I even checked it the morning of the failure and gave a false reading of being good. When the alarm intermittently started going off, I believed it to be a bad sender as it would cut in and out. By the time I added additional oil, out in the middle of the lake, the damage had been done and motor seized. I just could not imagine burning through five quarts of oil in a few months of use.

In hindsight I should have seen this coming. In previous years of draining the oil at the end of season, I was never able to pull out the five quarts that should have been in there. I chalked it up to the inefficient suction system inherit to most marine motors. When in truth, I was getting most of the oil out, it was just wasn't in there as the engine had begun to consume it during the season.

That's crazy.  So when you checked the dipstick, it showed full oil?  Not even low?  If you checked it the morning of the failure and you said it gave a "false reading of being good," how is it possible that it ran out of oil later that day?  That's really bizarre because the dipstick goes right into the pan, so whatever reading you're getting on it is almost always accurate.  Maybe the oil wasn't being pumped into the engine and just stayed in the pan?  That would be the only thing I could think of.  Do you remember what your oil pressure gauge was reading at the time all of this was happening?  What about after it seized and when you were pulling the engine out, did you check the status of the oil at that time?  That would be good to know.  And what model was the original VP engine?

Hope you don't mind talking about this since it's a good learning experience for all of us.  

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I’m with Hatem on this. Sorry that you had such a catastrophic failure, but oil consumption doesn’t seem to be the culprit. As Hatem stated, the dipstick is a very, very basic mechanism to show oil level. Maybe if your oil pan was crushed or deformed in some way then the dipstick may be showing proper level but your actual oil volume could be reduced (was it deformed?). Or if you constancy checked level in your driveway on an unlevel surface, you could be seeing actually less oil than what is in the pan, and too much oil is bad, too. It can lead to foaming from the moving crankshaft being immersed in it, which can cause pressure issues.

(Maybe that’s why you never removed stated volume of oil at each oil change: unlevel driveway?)

Sounds like you had alarms for oil pressure issues, which could have been a bad pump. Keep running it with low pressure and you can cause extreme wear to valve guides and cylinder rings, which maybe, just maybe could have caused lots of oil consumption in a short time, which left you with low oil upon tear down. If that was happening in a car engine, you’d see tons of blue smoke out the tailpipe, which would be masked on a boat in the water.

Anyway, first time I’m hearing of oil consumption issues on GM blocks, so this has me interested. Neither my 350 Merc or my 380hp VP consume oil between changes, 50hrs, but both engines were below 300hrs total.

You didn’t reuse the old oil pump, right?

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Actually the Volvo dipstick never touches the oil pan or the oil in the pan. The dipstick cable runs parallel with the oil pan in the dipstick tube  which joins the oil pan at the very bottom of the pan .It works on the premise of liquids finding there own level. Hence my theory of an inaccurate system. Any oil residue anywhere in this tube  can contaminate the “oil reading section” which in and of itself is only about an inch long from full to low markings. Any oil in the suction tube can get on the indicator area and give you a false reading because of the fact that the oil indicator area is near the diameter of the tube it rests in. 

This false reading can best be explained by the theory of taking your oil reading on the second pull of the cable. Usually you pull the cable, wipe it off and stick back in the tube, then pull it out again and take a reading. Doing this drags oil up the tube walls from the indicator area on the cable and then when it is reinserted, the indicator gets tube oil back on the clean indicator, giving a false reading. It appears to me that the most accurate oil level reading would be obtained on the first pull out, not after cleaning and reinserting.

Now go ahead and tell me I’m crazy. I may well be.

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I hear what you’re saying, but all wet sump/dipstick systems work this way.

To distinguish between “residue” and a real reading, pull twice, like you stated, but look closely at the hashmarked area,

If you’ve ever checked your oil during an oil change, you can clearly see when you need to keep filling. The knurling in the hashmark area will only “grab” oil from a full immersion into the oil in the sump, not from the sides of the tube. When it’s grabbing residue from the sides of the tube, the pattern on the dipstick end is inconsistent, with dry spots. Only when it is fully submerged will there be full coverage on the knurling. That’s the design behind it, so you can clearly differentiate.

However, if you only casually inspect the tip, I agree, you can be misled. But it sounds like you weren’t casually inspecting during checks, which suggests your root cause wasn’t lack of oil. If oil related, it sounds like a pressure loss. 

New oil pump, right?

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Yep, new oil pump.

But most dipstick systems use a flat blade type of “stick” to minimize side wall tube contact. Volvo uses a cylinder which allows greater contact with the tube walls.

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23 hours ago, Chap243 said:

Yep, new oil pump.

But most dipstick systems use a flat blade type of “stick” to minimize side wall tube contact. Volvo uses a cylinder which allows greater contact with the tube walls.

It still should be a white, plastic tip with a notch in the middle for exactly that reason.  The notch is where the high & low hash marks are and being notched and setback from the cable/cylinder shape, it stays away from any of that sidewall contact with any oil.  You should always be able to get a very accurate reading.

And it should be coming into the oil pan just like this schematic.  I tried breifly to trace mine this morning to see if it looked like this and it does.  Comes into the pan at a very sharp angle almost vertical, so should get very accurate readings.

25252.jpg

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6 hours ago, Hatem said:

It still should be a white, plastic tip with a notch in the middle for exactly that reason.  The notch is where the high & low hash marks are and being notched and setback from the cable/cylinder shape, it stays away from any of that sidewall contact with any oil.  You should always be able to get a very accurate reading.

And it should be coming into the oil pan just like this schematic.  I tried breifly to trace mine this morning to see if it looked like this and it does.  Comes into the pan at a very sharp angle almost vertical, so should get very accurate readings.

25252.jpg

My oil dipstick system looks nothing like yours in the picture. My dipstick does not go into the oil pan at all. It runs parallel to it.

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