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Hatem

Newbies with wet bilges (how to dry them safely and efficiently).

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12 hours ago, Klub Marcus said:

I'll check for an anchor locker drain. The more trips we take, the more we can see how much water can get in the bilge. So far it's nowhere near enough to activate the bilge pump float switch. The top of the shop-vac comes off as a separate unit and is much smaller and it's in great condition. I'll be careful with the shop vac and I intend to use it only when the boat is on the wash rack while draining out.

Great.  If it's on the wash rack then it's leaning  backwards anyway and all you need to do then is pull out the butt plug (drain plug) and not even need to vacuum since all the water will drain out on its own. Then all you need to do is dry it down with a towel if you want to. 

Obviously you wouldn't even be able to fit a shop vac into the bilge and there is no need to.  Keep it outside on the cockpit floor and add extensions to your hoses.  Obviously if you smell heavy gas fumes, something's wrong and I wouldn't use it.  But I've been doing this all year long and works great!

Let's see if we can refresh some people on the SAFETY features I spoke about on my first post. 

On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 8:23 PM, Hatem said:

Add one or two of the flexible hose extensions before you add the two solid ones and you have all the reach you need to get every single spot in the bilge and suck it dry without bending 1 inch!

Of course, check for gas fumes before turning the vacuum on to avoid the obvious and start vacuuming all the water out.

Eo8S79D.jpg

Empty the vacuum as needed and in less than 15 minutes, the rain-filled bilge is dry as a bone. 

2 extensions of each, the hard and flexible hose would help you reach areas that are far away while keeping the vacuum outside of the bilge. 

 

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On 10/5/2019 at 3:43 AM, Rambo said:

If gas is leaking out, then the ShopVac isn't the problem. If boats are so dangerous that you can't use a ShopVac, then boating manufacturers are retards and need to go out of business or get replaced by better ones. Customers shouldn't be paying to worry about gasoline leaks because boat engineers aren't up to par.

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If gas is leaking out, then the ShopVac isn't the problem. If boats are so dangerous that you can't use a ShopVac, then boating manufacturers are retards and need to go out of business or get replaced by better ones. Customers shouldn't be paying to worry about gasoline leaks because boat engineers aren't up to par.

As already observed above, it is not about gasoline leak per se, it is about gasoline vapor, or propane vapor if propane is present on a boat. It is not about engineers messing up, it is about ignorant DIYers and careless boat operators who statistically are responsible for the overwhelming majority of boat fires.

The engineers did their job while designing all boat components, they "ignition protected" all possible sources of ignition. Now, it is up to the individual boat owner or operator to keep up with that requirement and not introduce unprotected sources of vapor ignition. Here is what some might say boring, otherwise insightful explanation copied from one of the links provided earlier.

"Ignition protection - the design and construction of a device such that under design operating conditions:

a. it will not ignite a flammable hydrocarbon mixture surrounding the device when an ignition source causes an internal explosion, or
b. it is incapable of releasing sufficient electrical or thermal energy to ignite a hydrocarbon mixture, or
c. the source of ignition is hermetically sealed

What this means: If gasoline vapor is present in a space all of the electrical equipment in the space must be ignition protected to avoid causing a fire. Unless specifically labelled "Ignition Protected" all electrical equipment is assumed to be capable of causing small sparks which can start a fire. Even fuses can cause a fire when they blow unless they are specifically designated as ignition protected fuses. The standard also applies to spaces with CNG or propane in specified concentrations. Ignition protected equipment is specially designed to prevent sparks either because the electrical connections are in a hermetically sealed container or because they have been designed to prevent heat transfer to the atmosphere.

To comply with the standard gasoline powered boats must have ignition protected equipment in the engine compartment, and the engine compartment must be sealed from any spaces in which non-ignition protected equipment is located. Any boats with gasoline stored below decks must have only ignition protected equipment in the area where the gasoline is stored. The storage area must be sealed from any other area where non-ignition protected equipment is located."

Sticking a tube that can suck gasoline (that vaporizes while being transferred) or gasoline fumes from an engine compartment and blow them around non-ignition protected electric motor is equally risky regardless of the location of that motor, inside or outside of the engine compartment.

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Every vacuum cleaner I have owned & used ………..HAS...……….SPARK producing brushes.    INCLUDING 120 VAC wall plug units.

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12 hours ago, Rambo said:

As already observed above, it is not about gasoline leak per se, it is about gasoline vapor, or propane vapor if propane is present on a boat. It is not about engineers messing up, it is about ignorant DIYers and careless boat operators who statistically are responsible for the overwhelming majority of boat fires.

The engineers did their job while designing all boat components, they "ignition protected" all possible sources of ignition. Now, it is up to the individual boat owner or operator to keep up with that requirement and not introduce unprotected sources of vapor ignition. Here is what some might say boring, otherwise insightful explanation copied from one of the links provided earlier.

"Ignition protection - the design and construction of a device such that under design operating conditions:

a. it will not ignite a flammable hydrocarbon mixture surrounding the device when an ignition source causes an internal explosion, or
b. it is incapable of releasing sufficient electrical or thermal energy to ignite a hydrocarbon mixture, or
c. the source of ignition is hermetically sealed

What this means: If gasoline vapor is present in a space all of the electrical equipment in the space must be ignition protected to avoid causing a fire. Unless specifically labelled "Ignition Protected" all electrical equipment is assumed to be capable of causing small sparks which can start a fire. Even fuses can cause a fire when they blow unless they are specifically designated as ignition protected fuses. The standard also applies to spaces with CNG or propane in specified concentrations. Ignition protected equipment is specially designed to prevent sparks either because the electrical connections are in a hermetically sealed container or because they have been designed to prevent heat transfer to the atmosphere.

To comply with the standard gasoline powered boats must have ignition protected equipment in the engine compartment, and the engine compartment must be sealed from any spaces in which non-ignition protected equipment is located. Any boats with gasoline stored below decks must have only ignition protected equipment in the area where the gasoline is stored. The storage area must be sealed from any other area where non-ignition protected equipment is located."

Sticking a tube that can suck gasoline (that vaporizes while being transferred) or gasoline fumes from an engine compartment and blow them around non-ignition protected electric motor is equally risky regardless of the location of that motor, inside or outside of the engine compartment.

Never thought about this hazard, and have never used a shop vac in the bilge. Now I won’t - thank you. Wonder if my cordless drill is a hazard.

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Yeah the idea is not to suck out gasoline nor is the idea to put the vacuum on the bilge.  Gotta be smart about these things not ignorant. 

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22 minutes ago, Hatem said:

Yeah the idea is not to suck out gasoline nor is the idea to put the vacuum on the bilge.  Gotta be smart about these things not ignorant. 

So you are 100% sure that static can not build up from the hose or extensions? Also 100% sure that there is no gas in the water?

Boy, am glad you don't have a boat next to me!!

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On 10/11/2019 at 11:37 AM, Curt said:

Never thought about this hazard, and have never used a shop vac in the bilge. Now I won’t - thank you. Wonder if my cordless drill is a hazard.

It could be, in an extremely unusual situation. Read about acetone vapor explosion ignited by a power tool on a boat being built by a private person.

What mitigates the risk is the fact that just before using a drill your nose will be down there a feet or two above bilge detecting potential hazard. When a nose is in open air some 5-6 feet above a deck that is some 4 feet above bilge, it might miss the early telltale sign of hazard. Just being informed makes a whole lot of difference.

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54 minutes ago, Rambo said:

It could be in an extremely unusual situation. Read about acetone vapor explosion ignited by a power tool on a boat being built by a private person.

What mitigates the risk is the fact that before you using a drill your nose would be down there a feet or two above bilge detecting potential hazard. When a nose is in open air some 5-6 feet above a deck that is some 4 feet above bilge, it might miss the early telltale sign of hazard. Just being informed makes a whole lot of difference.

Thank you. Acetone and MEK are excellent solvents, but highly flammable. I use a battery powered drill and impact wrench a lot in the engine bay. Not to remove water, but to remove this, install that, etc. Never thought about these as an ignition source. I’ll do a bit of checking with DeWalt and Milwaukee.

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You people are just too anal about a little water in the bilge , just add a little bit of soap to it to keep the bilge clean.

If you bilge is in the wrong place, relocate it or add a smaller one one at the transom

Any YES, using a shop vac in the gas tank will explode the shop vac, just ask my neighbor

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I was getting a lot of water into the bilge this year. Lots of rain. It washed the 303 off of the cover and therefore water was dripping into the cabin and eventually into the bilge.  So I took some DAP silicone and patched up some bad areas on the cover, applied a new layer of 303 and changed the way I use the vent covers [plastic pool cover].  The vent covers have been working fairly well but the wind kept blowing them up leaving the vents exposed. So I changed they way I snap them in by dropping dock line over the top of them. The weight of the dock line holds the cover in place and prevents water from getting it. Since I started doing this along with the cover repair, no water has been in the bilge for nearly 2 months. 

My boat is 32 years old and after reading the post about a boat like mine being scrapped because of damage to the hull [beyond repair] makes me pay more attention to water in the bilge than usual. Water in the bilge, to me, is an indicator that something might be wrong. My first question is, "where is it coming from?" Plus, standing water in the bilge could lead to wood rot and I'm trying to avoid that. Hence, WetVac.

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On 10/14/2019 at 12:23 PM, SST said:

I was getting a lot of water into the bilge this year. Lots of rain. It washed the 303 off of the cover and therefore water was dripping into the cabin and eventually into the bilge.  So I took some DAP silicone and patched up some bad areas on the cover, applied a new layer of 303 and changed the way I use the vent covers [plastic pool cover].  The vent covers have been working fairly well but the wind kept blowing them up leaving the vents exposed. So I changed they way I snap them in by dropping dock line over the top of them. The weight of the dock line holds the cover in place and prevents water from getting it. Since I started doing this along with the cover repair, no water has been in the bilge for nearly 2 months. 

My boat is 32 years old and after reading the post about a boat like mine being scrapped because of damage to the hull [beyond repair] makes me pay more attention to water in the bilge than usual. Water in the bilge, to me, is an indicator that something might be wrong. My first question is, "where is it coming from?" Plus, standing water in the bilge could lead to wood rot and I'm trying to avoid that. Hence, WetVac.

Part of my licensing to complete my yearly continuing education certification for license renewal is that a whole day out of the five is dedicated to OSHA training and safety standards in the construction industry (sort of a refresher course and any added new safety codes and I've had my license for over 32 years and keep up with all the OSHA safety standards) and one of the oldest codes ( which is actually more of a building code than part of OSHA but for some reason almost always makes it's way into the OSHA class) that used to be a very prominent was this one: "an attached garage structure must to be 4 inches lower than the rest of the habitable house".  Meaning you needed a 4 inch step from the garage to the rest of your house.  The reason behind that step is to prevent gas fumes that collect low to the ground from parked cars to enter the house.  So since the fumes collect at the bottom....read what causes the fumes.

Floor Level

Old habits die hard. Building codes used to stipulate that the floor of an attached garage be four inches lower than the floor level of the house. The rationale for requiring this little step was that it would prevent spilled gasoline, gasoline vapors, and carbon monoxide from getting inside the house. Today's residential building code does not include this requirement (presumably, cars are less likely to leak these days), which means that an entire house (garage included) can be set on a concrete slab poured at one height. 

So I look at it as if I have any spilled or leaking gasoline in your boat which is responsible for almost every single boat lighting up and be sure there is no spilled gas mixed with the rain water.  What I have is a bit of oily water from oil change spills and very minor, but absolutely no gas leak.  So the fear mongering that has permeated this thread is EXTRAORDINARY, especially the comment about the neighbor vacuuming his GAS TANK!!!!  WHY THE @#$^#^ would anyone vacuum a gas tank is beyond me and the majority of reasonable people.   I will leave it at that and I'm glad you posted.

 

 

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I will also say that I think there has been a lot of overreaction here. I also use the shop vac to get the last bit of water from my bilge while slipped. It is done after the motor cover has been raised for some time to allow ventilation and the motor head of the vacuum is never placed down in the bilge, only the plastic suction hose. I am not vacuuming gasoline, just water.

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Most people have no interest in gasoline liquid that is laying on the floor. Could care even less. 

A boat is like a car on the water. Even has a car engine.  I do not know either one can have a gasoline fire / explosion.

That is a fair mind set of most boat people.  Boating classes do help people become aware of some dangers that a boat can have.

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On 10/16/2019 at 3:46 PM, Chap243 said:

I will also say that I think there has been a lot of overreaction here. I also use the shop vac to get the last bit of water from my bilge while slipped. It is done after the motor cover has been raised for some time to allow ventilation and the motor head of the vacuum is never placed down in the bilge, only the plastic suction hose. I am not vacuuming gasoline, just water.

Run your blowers too for a few minutes prior to vacuuming if you think there is any gas fumes that resulted from any gas leaking and you're good just like you have been. 

On 10/16/2019 at 9:23 PM, cyclops2 said:

Boating classes do help people become aware of some dangers that a boat can have.

Where did you get anything about "boating classes"?  Did you even read what was posted?  Not one mention about a boating class although that's not a bad idea either.  Take a #$%$&$% boating class especially the seamanship class.  Those are great offered by the USCGAUX.

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Some people are ridiculous Hatem, leave it be. There is no issue vacuuming up water. Gas vapor (easily detectable in the amounts required for an explosion) is obviously different. After having a guy next to me in a boatyard with a gas leak that drained and vacuumed out gasoline diluted with plenty of water, i am less fearful. Be prudent, don't be silly. Gasoline is dangerous, but there are few incidents but a ton of careless idiots. 

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On 11/9/2019 at 8:35 PM, drewm3i said:

Some people are ridiculous Hatem, leave it be.

Good to hear from you again, we used to have great discussion on this board back when you and Joe Miska and others participated more frequently, but all good things come to an end, I guess.

I smashed the rear glass on my F-450 last Thursday so it's going in for a new glass tomorrow.  Got some wild pics I might post them on the This is for Hatem Thread but will wait a bit until all this brutal spam attack is taken care of.  Being on here since 2014, I've never seen anything like this.  I guess they're getting ready for 2020 LOL!  Basterds.

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