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drummer22

2001 220 SSI - Rattle noise?

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On 9/15/2020 at 6:13 PM, drummer22 said:

Finally paid somebody half down to pull a compression test on Thursday. Picking up new spark plugs tomorrow (might as well swapp them out if your pull'n them)

As Drew suspected, sure sound like a blown head gasket between 3 and 5 cylinder, but don't assume anything. When you remove the rocker arms, place a straight edge across the top of the valve stems, and if any are higher than the others, inspect those valves and seats. Have the heads planned dead flat, but tell the shop to remove minimum material as you do not want to raise your compression ratio. Straight edge the block decks too, and if you can pass more than a .002" feeler gauge between your straight edge and the deck, you may have to use a composite sandwich gasket in order to obtain an adequate seal. W

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26 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

As Drew suspected, sure sound like a blown head gasket between 3 and 5 cylinder, but don't assume anything. When you remove the rocker arms, place a straight edge across the top of the valve stems, and if any are higher than the others, inspect those valves and seats. Have the heads planned dead flat, but tell the shop to remove minimum material as you do not want to raise your compression ratio. Straight edge the block decks too, and if you can pass more than a .002" feeler gauge between your straight edge and the deck, you may have to use a composite sandwich gasket in order to obtain an adequate seal. W

Absolutely! It could also be a stuck valve causing the noise as my friend and I discussed when I was going through the same issue. Either way, isn't the fix to have the heads machined?

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14 hours ago, drewm3i said:

Absolutely! It could also be a stuck valve causing the noise as my friend and I discussed when I was going through the same issue. Either way, isn't the fix to have the heads machined?

Sure, I just wanted to be sure he does due diligence, and is not tempted to throw a new head gasket on the thing and assume the problem is solved.  W

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here is an absolute crazy idea.. instead of checking all the valves and getting the heads both machined - which could take weeks.. (no idea how much it will cost) and kinda guess at the problem..

 

Would it make since to just replace both heads outright? It looks like Mercury sells compete assemblies (8M0115137).. That way I can literally just bolt them on with new gaskets. and get back on the water. (Same with the distributor too). Maybe im just loosing momentum and thinking crazy??? lol :haha-7383:

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On 9/19/2020 at 7:40 AM, Wingnut said:

Sure, I just wanted to be sure he does due diligence, and is not tempted to throw a new head gasket on the thing and assume the problem is solved.  W

Curious - what is the process of inspecting the valves? Remove the valve covers and observe the springs / rockers? In other words.. is a stuck valve clearly obvious based on a visual inspecton of removing the cover only? (I don't have much experience with head work.. ) Thank you

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On 9/18/2020 at 2:24 PM, drewm3i said:

Will start hunting down parts..  Thank you!

1) replace both head gaskets and have both heads machined. Overheating can cause warping of surfaces.

2)replace flappers

3) do a full tune up of cap, rotor, plugs, wires, etc.

4) paint the engine block and heads if it needs it.

5) inspect and replace the starter if it looks bad (easy to get to with the heads off)

6) replace intake manifold gaskets as it will have to come off

 

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1 hour ago, drummer22 said:

Curious - what is the process of inspecting the valves? Remove the valve covers and observe the springs / rockers? In other words.. is a stuck valve clearly obvious based on a visual inspecton of removing the cover only? (I don't have much experience with head work.. ) Thank you

Remover the rocker arms and lay a straight edge across the top of all the valve stems. If some seem higher then the seats are failing and you need a valve job. If one or two seem low, specifically on cylinders 3 and 5, then a valve guide is stuck, not allowing the valve to close fully. It is just as important to take your time during disassembly and inspect, then test components in a disciplined, structured fashion as you do not want to overlook what was causing an issue and end up with a repeat performance. W

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3 hours ago, drummer22 said:

here is an absolute crazy idea.. instead of checking all the valves and getting the heads both machined - which could take weeks.. (no idea how much it will cost) and kinda guess at the problem..

 

Would it make since to just replace both heads outright? It looks like Mercury sells compete assemblies (8M0115137).. That way I can literally just bolt them on with new gaskets. and get back on the water. (Same with the distributor too). Maybe im just loosing momentum and thinking crazy??? lol :haha-7383:

You could do that and then sell yours when they're done. I believe my head job took 2 weeks at the machine shop. Feel free to PM me to discuss the procedure from start to finish if you'd like! 

New gaskets, bolts, and heads would make that thing run like new.

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Your engine uses stretch bolt technology, whereas the head bolts get base torqued to 20 foot pounds in sequence, then a torque angle meter is utilized in two additional stages. New bolts must be used too. Also, as these bolts go into the water jackets, the threads need to be coated with the specified sealant. As far as the distributor replacement goes, I'd avoid the OEM Merc replacement as the body is plastic. Check out the billet aluminum replacement below for less than half the price.    Available from Rock Auto and on Amazon  W

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=1130207&cc=1031555&jsn=1013

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Quick update. Pulled the valve on the side with the low compression. Every valve has this slight “looseness” from left to right (parallel to the length side of the engine) expect for the 4th valve (as in video below) on chamber 5 (my modest compression reading)


Edit. The spring is compressed on that valve.. which I’m why I’m assuming no looseness..

However - I did put the valve cover back on, crank the engine (not start) took cover off to re-examine.. and notice the same spring was still compressed.. along with a spring on chamber 1.

blah!! Going to talk to a new shop tomorrow 

https://ibb.co/V3Mc5Bx

 

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Cylinder heads are a totally different world of check out steps & procedures. It is probably a good section to   NOT do a DIY on.

  I did a couple of OLD SIMPLE heads. & checking valve spring height & compressed tension.  As you Stumble into the parts and pull them apart. You are constantly making a judgement call on every part. Is the free play acceptable ? is the rocker arm totally free ? Is there too much play. Are a few arms & shaft showing a different wear pattern ??  Push rods in excellent condition. Roll on a flat surface. Are there chipped ends on the push rods ?  The steps are a lot & need to be done to catch other parts starting to fail.  Are some parts showing a DIFFERENT polished surface color.

There are a lot of steps to  do on some lifters. Some had a bad run.  There are a lot of steps to doing a head right. 

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I disagree Cy, DIY is easy...just unbolt them and carry them to a shop who will inspect, machine, clean, and reassemble with new wear parts (valve seats). Putting back on was very easy...just follow the torque sequence and use new bolts with thread sealant after chasing the threads with a tap.

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That is what I wanted the people to do.  You did the right thing.

Checking every part of a Cylinder head correctly is almost impossible for a DIY person.

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3 hours ago, drummer22 said:

Quick update. Pulled the valve on the side with the low compression. Every valve has this slight “looseness” from left to right (parallel to the length side of the engine) expect for the 4th valve (as in video below) on chamber 5 (my modest compression reading)


Edit. The spring is compressed on that valve.. which I’m why I’m assuming no looseness..

However - I did put the valve cover back on, crank the engine (not start) took cover off to re-examine.. and notice the same spring was still compressed.. along with a spring on chamber 1.

blah!! Going to talk to a new shop tomorrow 

https://ibb.co/V3Mc5Bx

 

Your rocker arm side deflection is completely normal. The one that was open had return spring pressure applied so it would not move by hand. Again, normal. I'd remove the rockers as I suggested earlier, which exposes the valve stems, and then straight edge across the top of them all at the same time noting the differences in height.  W

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Finally got a shop on board. Supposed to pull the boat out and start tearing her apart..

Given shes almost 20 years old.. 550 hours.. is there anything I should maintain on the Alpha 1 (Gen 2) outboard? Might as will pull it off (6 bolts and a clip). So far - the only thing on my list is to replace the exterior exhaust bellow (looks pretty old).. possibly repaint and resticker.

Any suggestions? 

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2 hours ago, drummer22 said:

Finally got a shop on board. Supposed to pull the boat out and start tearing her apart..

Given shes almost 20 years old.. 550 hours.. is there anything I should maintain on the Alpha 1 (Gen 2) outboard? Might as will pull it off (6 bolts and a clip). So far - the only thing on my list is to replace the exterior exhaust bellow (looks pretty old).. possibly repaint and resticker.

Any suggestions? 

Engine alignment, u-joint replacement, top seal inspection, bellows, gimbel bearing replacement, coupler lube and inspection, and rear shift cable based on 20 years. The hours are not your issue. When was the last time the water pump impeller in your Alpha was changed?   W

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18 hours ago, Wingnut said:

Engine alignment, u-joint replacement, top seal inspection, bellows, gimbel bearing replacement, coupler lube and inspection, and rear shift cable based on 20 years. The hours are not your issue. When was the last time the water pump impeller in your Alpha was changed?   W

Thats a great list! Thank you for sharing..

Not sure about the water pump, as I'm the third owner :( but since its already being pulled.. I cant imagine why not!

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First round of parts ordered. Saved about $150 bucks by sourcing thru NuWave Marina (plus I get points too!) I really focused on cooling - since that seems to be what caused the head gasket to go in the first place, right?

Name Part Number Quantity Cost
       
Head Bolt (1 of 2) 10-119671 4 13.17
Head Bolt (2 of 2) 10-11966 14 12.78
Head Gasket 27-75611001 2 47.99
Valve Cover Gasket 8M0150306 2 22.06
       
Spark Cable Kit 816761Q17 1 66.99
       
Exhaust Gasket 33395 2 11.02
Fuel Filter 35-802893Q 1 19.99
Intake Gasket Kit 807473A1 1 56.75
Water Pump Assembly 46-8M0113734 1 144.64
Theromostat 8M0109441 1 30.61

Water pump Impeller kit

47-8M0100526 1 49.78

Tear down by the shop began Monday.. waiting on results before I replace with brand new heads (aprox $1200 shipped in 2 days) or send of the old heads to be machined (no idea how much this would cost or take time)

I see the recommendation to replace the distributor / ignition assembly / coil ($427)  starter ($233) and belt ($96 - wow really?) which would take priority? Sounds like the starter right? I have no intentions of just replacing random parts.. but since the guys are already tearing have the engine down, might as well utilize their time best.

 

Thankfully work has been crazy and overtime is helping pay these repair bills!

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Complete Heads 8M0115137 2
572.31
1144.62
Coil 805570A2 1 93.01 93.01
Distributor and Ignition 805185A36 1 333.99 333.99
Belt 8638764 1 95.78 95.78
Starter 863007A1 1 233.71 233.71

 

Here is the part numbers.. just incase somebody needs to see this thread in the future :blink:

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On 9/20/2020 at 3:16 PM, Wingnut said:

Your engine uses stretch bolt technology, whereas the head bolts get base torqued to 20 foot pounds in sequence, then a torque angle meter is utilized in two additional stages. New bolts must be used too. Also, as these bolts go into the water jackets, the threads need to be coated with the specified sealant. As far as the distributor replacement goes, I'd avoid the OEM Merc replacement as the body is plastic. Check out the billet aluminum replacement below for less than half the price.    Available from Rock Auto and on Amazon  W

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=1130207&cc=1031555&jsn=1013

I like this idea and did something like it on my car restoration project.. but for this particular instance.. I want to keep as OEM as possible.

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Update - between 3 and 5 .. head gasket was gone! Its not great news.. but at least progress is being made! 

 

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Well guys.. its kept getting worse and worse..  We took apart the heads. The low compression side had a huge gap in the head gasket (about 1/2'") between the cylinders.. that was the easy part. The worse - we had fire pitting on the block. To the point were neither of us where comfortable slapping a new head gasket down and going about. Also, the opposite head had a pretty noticeable crack on one of the water ports.. the giant intake gasket might of sealed it up.. who knows!

After reaching out to a few shops to get the block and heads straightened out.. we decided to just replaced with a long block from Mercury. (3500 to deck the block and heads vs 4100 next day delivery from Mercury). This saved us from weeks (maybe a month) to just days. 

Tall order? Yes.. but at least it comes with a warranty! Next step is to return some parts and see who wants to by my old assembly! lol. I'll keep anyone in the loop who is interested about the process... block should get here today :).

Okay got to get back to work and figure out how to pay my credit card off, lol.

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Drummer22,  I had the same issue...  headgasket and block erosion between 3/5 .  Combine that with a 1000+ hour engine and high % leak down on several other cylinders.  Answer was Merc Longblock.  

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1 hour ago, IndyChap said:

Drummer22,  I had the same issue...  headgasket and block erosion between 3/5 .  Combine that with a 1000+ hour engine and high % leak down on several other cylinders.  Answer was Merc Longblock.  

How did that turn out for you? Kinda excited to see the Long block getting dropped off today - on a big truck!  

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Here is my current "new part's" list.. any suggestions on anything that "absolutely" needs to be replaced at 550 hours? At this point I'm so deep.. where the mechanic isn't asking a whole lot of money to swap old parts for new..

Complete Long Block
Exhaust Flappers
Distributor, Coil and Ignition
Belt
Head Bolt (1 of 2)
Head Bolt (2 of 2)
Head Gasket
Valve Cover Gasket
Spark Plug Cable Kit and new Sparks
Exhaust Gasket
Fuel Filter
Intake Gasket
Water Pump
Theromostat
 
Alpha 1 - 0L943360
Impeller repair kit
Alpha 1 Gen 2 Transom Bellows Repair/Reseal Kit 
Trim Sender Unit (mine is busted)

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